20-Hydroxyecdysterone

[iron addict]

How have results been on this? I ordered some last night and see that you have reccoemended it. Is there a need to use the anogen brand, or will any well dosed 20-Hydroxyecdysterone product do?

IA

[trouble]

Results are very good for E-20 when the diet is enriched in other nuclear receptor activator lipids (to encourage co-activation of other receptors that link with the ecdysteroid receptor to form heterodimers (vitamin A or carotene for RXR activation, for instance). Fish oil is a must as well.

Now, this plant steroid is extremely common in many plants throughout the world; its concentrated in the roots and stems of some species. Occuring with them is related series of compounds, the E-25 phytosteroid series, also lipid soluble and so they co-purify. The latter don't bind as tightly, and therefore are more likely to act on many other nuclear receptors, meaning that they have other benefits but also are less effective as anabolic agents. They also compete for binding to AR (are competitive binding inhibitors) and so dilute the desired anabolic effects of E-20 phytosteroids. Beyond binding to AR, these ecdysteroids are immune and recovery aides, promote regeneration of tissue, and are potent lipid regulators, improving cholesterol, retinoid, and vitamin D action in the liver, and normalizing hormone prodution in thyroid and adrenals as well.

I have never seen an agent work as well for sharpening the mind, probably through cardiovascular / circulatory and glucose metabolism optimizing properties.

It makes Ginko seem tame by comparison. Its also one of the most potent and least compromising body recomp agents I've ever seen or used.

The Anagen formula cleverly combines a good quality E-20 extract with Rhodiola rosea and Bacopa moneri, both potent stress adaptogens.

I have tried Syntrax's Syntra AC and can recommend it as well. There are some transdermals that combine E-20 with bile acids to great effect. I have ahh, amended these transdermal products to make them more effective; the manufacturer chose to ignore my recommendations on use of synergistic nuclear receptors.

This doctor only knocks once on certain doors.

[Grassroots]

I will give you my feedback IA, although I am not trouble so I can't tell if you are asking me or her.

I ordered my product via BAC, so it is 60% 20-hydroxy by volume. Soo, I dosed at about 800mg-1000mg of Ecdy per day, so 480mg - 600mg 20-hydroxy give or take. I did notice a nice fullness to my muscles and by mirror, looked much more appealing than before using the product. However, I was also using CNW's lightning and CEE, and felt like shit (view my bloodwork thread). I suspected that the Ecdy screwed with my liver, but I was wrong. I would like to get trouble's view on it, I suspect that with better dosing and quality (Anagen) that my gains would be better. It's just so hard to try and break up "1 scoop" of that powder with each meal. I mean what if you go out and eat? I was taking this little white pill bottle with me that had the powder in it. The powder tastes like ASS too, I would much rather take CEE but I like sour things. Anyways, I am sure it was not that much help, but that was my take on Ecdy.

[iron addict]

Will it compete at the AR with AAS? I know of 4 people using it now that are using AAS also?!?!

I got the Syntrax's Syntra AC since I already have rho. I know that is leaving one out but the anogen dosing for my weight made it damn expensive.

IA

[trouble]

You mean, will it compete for test binding at androgen receptor sites.

Yes and no; its going to be present at lower concentrations, and its nonspecific.

I think we have a basic problem with understanding the nature of the game here.

To understand my point, read this general review article on ecdysteroids. Its comprehensible if you take you time and don't get rattled by the fancy dance chemical nomenclature. In particular, see page 21, top left column, in which the definition of an adaptogen is given:

An adaptogen should:
1) be innocuous and cause minimal disturbance to the normal physiological function,

2) have a nonspecific action; and,

3) have a normalizing action irrespective of the direction of the preceding pathological changes.

While the definition of an adaptogen refers specifically to these three criteria, other bioactive properties are nonetheless characteristic of adaptogens. These include anabolic, antioxidant, hepatoprotective, and hypoglycemic activity.

The point is to use adaptogens, potent stress, membrane function, and gene expression modulating compounds that meet the following criteria, for their overall benefit.

Mammalian cells recognize phytoecdysteroids. There is evidence that phyto- ecdysteroids can induce RNA synthesis, accelerate receptor protein translocation, and stabilize both proteins and phospholipids in the cell membrane. The enhancement of skeletal muscle growth by ecdysteroids is perhaps best evidenced by their use in inducible gene expression systems to culture skeletal and muscle cells.

The bioactivity of many plant compounds, including phytoecdysteroids, has been linked to nongenomic effects. These effects arise from hormone ligand binding to a nuclear receptor, resulting in a long series of subcellular processes that include mRNA production and modification, translation into proteins, protein translation and/or insertion into membranes. This process can take hours before a response is seen.

Nongenomic effects result in the same response but do not involve direct ligand to receptor binding and the response is almost immediate. Ecdysterone is thought to stabilize cell membranes resulting in modifications of membrane proteins, accumulation of ligands, and other membrane associated
effects.

Two mediators of the stress response, neurosteroids and aldosterone are believed to work via nongenomic effects.

You must grasp this salient point to understand the ancient beauty of these compounds:

They are mimetics of repair and rejuvenation systems already in existence in mammalian cells = they improve this function ENORMOUSLY, but beyond it, they are a safeguard, keeping OTHER potentially destructive binding inhibitors at bay.

Adaptogens fine tune receptor and membrane functions. When there isn't enough action, they step it up, and when there is too much (or a compound that may block the receptor from action is present), they compete with it and modulate activity that would otherwise be too high and toxic or inhibited, too low to sustain proper physiological function.

For aging cell systems, its nirvana. For stressed induhviduals, its nirvana plus bliss, because it helps us overcome the otherwise impossible blockades to hypertrophy and growth through the suppresion of glucose metabolism and immune function.


This is where AAS falls flat on its kester, and worse, it causes debilitating changes in cellular function that slowly erode health and become toxic over time, often by cumulative secondary effects not readily apparent within standard lab testing protocols.

Why?

Because they fuck with the wrong nuclear receptors in liver and brain.

Thats what these compounds correct.

Are they synergistic?

You bet your sweet aas they are.

[jumpman]

Trouble what adaptogens would be most beneficial for my situation -
I am taking cordyceps and green tea extract right now
Thanks

[trouble]

In order to understand the exceptional importance of these ecdysteroids, you must understand the nature of stress response and its heavy handed effect on virtually all humans, over the course of development and early adult maturation.

By midlife, its not only chronic, but its affects have accelerated cellular aging and caused systemwide debilitation of repair and cellular replacement.

----------------------------------------------------

See that line?

think of it like this:

above it, the past, pre 1990s. Pre Nuclear Receptor Knowledge of biochemistry and molecular biology, the latter which preceded its awakening, by about 10 yrs or so.

biochemistry dominates until the late 1970s
molecular biology rises and dominates understanding until the late 1980s

and then, the most recent chapter, the realization that all of cellular regulation for repair and maintenance, for early gene regulation, its all tied to the handful of simple dietary lipids that bind to, and activate key gene control agents.

Here is the simple fact that explains why aas is doomed as primary cellular anabolic control agent:

they were designed, to mimic a lower level of control, hormones, but, in their design, mostly by pharma to gain patenting rights, their binding site efficiency and their steric action (how they fit into the binding sites) coupled to their supraphysiological dosing - led to complications, serious side effects.

These compounds were developed BEFORE much of molecular biology understanding was made clear, and very much before (even in the case of prohormones) the discovery of nuclear receptors.

Therefore, aas action on nuclear receptors was unknown and not accounted for.

Simple fact 2: nuclear receptors are regulated, geared by evolution, to function at very low phsiological doses of activators in diet, due to the historical access to food stuffs... Nutrient flow at low physiological dosing.

Supraphysiological levels of anabolics bind to and overwhelm the control actions of nuclear receptors, flooding the cells with conflicting signals.

Yes, you get hypertrophy, but you also get stress like cellular damage, and changes in cellular membranes via distruption of normal lipid control processes.

This alters normal cellular function at the membrane, protein, and receptor levels, beyond that of gene regulation changes.

Its a chemical hammer being used to drive a pin.

In the stressed indivdual, it simply does not work as advertized. In the nonstressed individual who has rock solid lipid controls (and careful diet and exercise) it works pretty well....for a while, but sooner or later, it exerts hyperplasia and glucose control issues (and therefore, fat dysregulation) in key whole body systems. Heart, liver, prostate, breast tissue, brain, thyroid, thymus, bone and other immune system components begin to lose normalized function.

What you need to consider is to use these phytosteroid alongside moderate doses of anabolics and lipolytics, to provide a synergy of effects and controls.

This insight is why I am the wind of change in this world of chemically enhanced strength training.

[ljefe15]

Thermolife makes an excellent ecdy product as well. Though the amount of ecdy is small, 15mg/serving, it seems like its got something to dow with its source, Rhaponticum carthamoides. Any views on the ecdy in this product trouble?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/thermo/ecdy.html

[trouble]

Since dosage is between 0.5- ~ 2 grams of the extract daily, its a very expensive product.

And, its available in other formulations. What they may have, is access to plants in which the E-20 production has been twitched to increase its yield.

So, without running an analysis on E-20 concentration, and more importantly, on the E-25 contaminant, we really can't tell just how much better it is, and if its worth the significant cost difference.

A note:

Potency can vary by plant species, by cultivar (strain), by environmental conditions during maturation, and by time of year for harvest, as well as plant materials used (leaves and stems vs roots).

One problem is that there is very little consistancy in supply and a lot of business interest in the product. Its not very standardized for quality yet.

The less scrupulous Eastern European and Chinese dealers are offering low quality dried plants, not even extract, in bulk here in the US.

I had one dealer with a straight face quote me $11K for a kilo. Fucking unreal. Actual price varies from 700-2K per kilo. Without papers (lab qual affadavit), I don't even look at it.

For the time being, I would stick with a few name brands in caps, until suitable reliable high quality extract can be found.

I'll bet the a certain ahh, originator of forskolin extraction technology will or has applied for patents to control it. At least this produces a high quality supply.

[Overload]

So is there a general consensus on what the better, more cost effective product is? I just ordered the thermolife brand based on good user reviews but rather get more bang for my buck if I can get it from another company.