What's your view point on Arachidonic Acid

[jesus rocks]

actually bro, I think he was talking to G-roy. He said "it works", why would he say that to me?

Most people who have used AA said it works

the vast majority of people on these boards do not have the empirical analytical skills to quantify the efficacy of supps they experiment with.

Like I said before, there are hundreds of possibly effective supplements out there, but my question to every supplement junkie out there is this: is it necessary? Is it worth the money? Do you even know how to figure out if it is.

A guy like Wes, or SB, I believe they can execute thorough evaluation, but, aside from health supps, ask any really BIG STRONG mofo what they take supplement wise. You'll likely see

Vit C
Green Tea
Multi
Creatine (not so much any more)
protein powder
carb drinks (wayyyyy over rated)
BCAAs
and maybe something else like glutamine or EAAs or LBAs (waaay over hyped).

[Slim Charles]

Originally Posted by jesus rocks

actually bro, I think he was talking to G-roy. He said "it works", why would he say that to me?

the vast majority of people on these boards do not have the empirical analytical skills to quantify the efficacy of supps they experiment with.

Like I said before, there are hundreds of possibly effective supplements out there, but my question to every supplement junkie out there is this: is it necessary? Is it worth the money? Do you even know how to figure out if it is.

A guy like Wes, or SB, I believe they can execute thorough evaluation, but, aside from health supps, ask any really BIG STRONG mofo what they take supplement wise. You'll likely see

Vit C
Green Tea
Multi
Creatine (not so much any more)
protein powder
carb drinks (wayyyyy over rated)
BCAAs
and maybe something else like glutamine or EAAs or LBAs (waaay over hyped).

Well, Wes just told you that it works, but it is not healthy so he doesn't take it anymore..

Also you can take omega 3's with AA, in fact, X-factor advanced has omega 3 fish oil in the capsule as well.

[jesus rocks]

Originally Posted by Slim Charles

Well, Wes just told you that it works, but it is not healthy so he doesn't take it anymore..

Also you can take omega 3's with AA, in fact, X-factor advanced has omega 3 fish oil in the capsule as well.

What's ur point, guy?

[Body_Snatcher]

omega 3s and omega 6s (AA) will cancel their effects out....to much AA will cancel the benefits out from the omega 3s and omega 3s will cancel out the benefits of AA from what I have read...

[Slim Charles]

Originally Posted by Body_Snatcher

omega 3s and omega 6s (AA) will cancel their effects out....to much AA will cancel the benefits out from the omega 3s and omega 3s will cancel out the benefits of AA from what I have read...

According to Bill Llewelyn (guy who made X-factor, MD) he said initially that was the case, but after further research he said taking a moderate amount of omega 3 will actually be beneficial and enhance AA.

[0311]

Too expensive for something so subtle. I tried it when it first came out and left me sore as fuck for the first week. A few pounds does NOT justify a C-note. And for the ones that would buy it in bulk - Good luck forcing that stagnant shit down your gullet. Trouble used to post A LOT about how harmful it is. I'm sure someone can find it on here somewhere.

[0311]

Here's something Trouble sent me when she saw I was taking it.

Originally Posted by Trouble

The primary action is two fold: by parent compound binding to regulatory genes in brain and certain tissues, and within cells, by action of metabolites (the inflammation inducing kind, so you do not want to outcompete product production by mass overload with omega fatty acids).

Use for very short periods of time - no more than 4-6 weeks.

Use in very low doses adjusted to your body mass (the label recommended doses sound quite high), further digging in the lit is recommended to see what loading rates have been studied for theraputic beneficial effects.

Use with others supps that provide protection against membrane lipid oxidation and help protect liver. Hence, use coezyme q10 and sam-e, with milk thistle, as alternate protection against lipid peroxidation and cellular oxidation from exercise in brain, lung, liver, kidney, skin, and skeletal muscle cells.

Do NOT use if your family has a history of colon or prostate cancer, or has a general history of cancer (esp soft tissue types, like liver, lung, brain, or pancreatic cancers).

Do not use if you smoke, or are cycling on steroids (or have in the last 4-6 months). I would avoid a fatty diet, as this compound will affect fatty acid metabolism in liver, resulting in cholestasis (bile acid buildup) if used for prolonged periods.

I neither condone nor directly recommend against use of this compound. It has beens shown to be important in body mass compositional regulation, but also key for turnover of cells, tissue repair, vascularization of tissues, aging in brain, and cancer metastasis. Its control of biosynthesis and storage and release within cells is as complex as its manyfold actions in the body and brain.

However, be forewarned that should you have certain gene regulatory fuckups that allow cells to express arachidonates on their cell surfaces, and if you develop or have certain small tumors, these will vascularize and migrate from their tissue origin, as this compound is involved in cell tissue adhesion loss (what makes like cell stick together and stay in one place). This is a powerful cell signalling compound that has many, many actions in cells, most recently described in the brain.

Note also that turnover rates refer to unbound parent compound. This is a fat soluble structure that easily partitions into cell membranes and may exert effects for weeks after dosing ceases.

Sorta like swallowing nails to get a little iron in your diet. Risky business.

Be so advised.

[0311]

Another....

Originally Posted by Trouble

The average cell turns over pretty slowly. Your DNA does not turnover at all. Therefore, when you fiddle with the controls, who knows when, in your future - or your children's future, since they're going to get an exact copy of your gamete DNA - the effects of this compound will manifest?

Some of your cells never turnover, like your cerebral cortex. Some turn over more quickly, like your liver, whose cells average between 300-500 days, whereas the stomach lining cycles very quickly, every few days, dermal cells every two weeks, and your red blood cells about 120 days.

When they do turnover, you might mentally hold your breath...because one of the actions of this compound is mitotic rate in certain tissues.

So AA binds to a regulatory region, and that regulatory factor....shifts in activity. Nobody can be sure just how it does, but if you're dosing for 50 days, chances are, bunch of cells are going to get that same signal.

So many pathways, so many actions...so little real data on the effects.

It's a Pandora's box of molecular action.

http://www.supercentenarian.com/archive/cells.html

If you read this article, you'll begin to understand this statement:

"Cell turnover in the human body does not adhere to a linear timescale."

Fifty days, Dan, may be just enough....I can't catalog all the reactions that might take place during that ingestion time, of course. Add a couple more weeks for clearance of the membrane soluble fraction. There isn't enough known about this compound to list all of the effects, overt and subtle control shifts....yet.

As to milk thistle dosing: 300 mg, 3x/day for an average bodymass of 185 lbs. Thats for a standardized extract of 70-80% silymarins. Format that has shown to be most readily absorbed is the silmarin extract bound to phosphatidylcholine. In the extract capsule form or bound form, take 30 min before meals for maximum absorption.

For this herb to be effective, you need to begin dosing about two weeks before you start taking that x-factor.

About that smoking. Good thing those highly insoluble coaltars eventually clear out of lung tissue...in a decade or so, depending on the loading rate, whether you used filtered or unfiltered, and the duration of your habit. Been a decade since your time in the Service?

I like you. I rather not see you taking risks, but if you must, do it as though you're handling a box of live ammunition.

[Slim Charles]

0311, thanks for those posts. No offense, but could you tell who "trouble" is and her credentials? I have spoken to PHD's and also the maker of the X-factor who is an MD himself, and he does agree if you have pre-existing conditons it is NOT a good idea to this supplement. However, he also noted that AA is actually NOT inflamatory as commonly believed.

""AA is the substrate for the production of a wide variety of eicosanoids (20-carbon AA metabolites). Some are proinflammatory, vasoconstrictive, and/or proaggregatory, such as prostaglandin E2, thromboxane A2, and leukotriene B4. However, others are antiinflammatory/antiaggregatory, such as prostacyclin, lipoxin A4, and epoxyeicosatrienoic acids...When healthy volunteers were given 7 times the usual intake of AA (ie, 1.5 g/d) in a 7-week controlled feeding study, no effects on platelet aggregation, bleeding times, the balance of vasoactive metabolites, serum lipid levels, or immune response were observed.5–8 Likewise, in a recent study from Japan, AA supplementation (840 mg/d for 4 weeks) had no effect on any metabolic parameter or platelet function.19 Consistent with this, in observational studies, higher omega-6 PUFA consumption was associated with unaltered or lower levels of inflammatory markers."

Here are some more posts by Bill Lewellyn for those that are interesting in how AA works:

"Dr. P makes a good point; You shouldn't take high doses of ARA if inflammation is not controlled, or you have an underlying inflammatory disease/condition. If you start taking it and notice pains that weren't there before, you should probably stop. If you can't train with full comfort, you are probably not going to notice the gains you want anyway. Thankfully, this type of complaint isn't common. Most just notice stronger DOMS, which is expected.

Keep in mind too the type of dosing we are talking about here (such as the recommended max of 4 caps daily) is intended to spike muscle ARA, leading to an acute anabolic response. There is also the option of taking 1 cap every day or two as a general supplement, just to make sure your tissue ARA stores are replenished from regular use/depletion. This shouldn't cause any issue unless you are extremely sensitive to dietary ARA."

"Initially we just wanted to be sure you'd get the maximum effect, and felt cutting out any potential conflict would be best. We've since pulled back from the restrictions quite a lot. We even added a bit of fish oil to XF Advanced. A moderate amount seems to help potentiate the ARA a bit. So I wouldn't micromanage you diet and supplementation to avoid AI products."

"Just to set your mind at rest, X-Factor isn't simply a "pro-inflammatory" supplement. It should not cause any new inflammation problems for someone without one. Actually, its been around for years and anything but minor joint issue or headache complaints are exceedingly rare. Inflammation is dependent on how your body uses ARA; its both potentially pro- and anti-inflammatory. It does, of course, support localized inflammation with training injury - its mechanism of action. If you are metabolically fit, there should be no change or a reduction in whole body inflammatory markers while using it.

Sometimes you will have an underlying issue that was asymptomatic before, such as low level joint stress/damage. In this case, extra ARA may bring about more pain. This might happen a couple of weeks into the cycle, as ARA levels build. It should also go back to normal a week or two after stopping, as the body will return to its pre-treated levels. Don't try to work through it. If you are in pain your performance is going to be sub par, and so will your results. It may be a good idea to take a break, maybe focus on joint repair/AI supplements for a bit (should it turn out to be a minor injury). "

I'm not advocating AA, but honestly from all the research I have seen it doesn't seem to be problematic. The other issue I have with Trouble's post is she is assuming the pro inflammatory action of AA that is usually linked with cancer, and other diseases. However, in the X-factor study at Baylor University the interlukin 6 ( a measure of total body inflammtion) was actually LOWER after supplementation of AA compared to placebo.

[0311]

Talking to the "man himself" selling the supplement? Nice. Excuse me while I go ask Muscle Tech why they still insist on selling Gakic. You're going to have to look up Trouble on this board back in the day. I'm not doing it for you. What's your credentials LOL? We can have a cut and paste War all day. I never bothered learning the pro's and con's of AA aside from eating more eggs. Trouble is/was perhaps the smartest person I've ever seen on these boards when it came to fitting the puzzle pieces together with science. She's proven herself long enough on these boards to where I can accept what she says. I doubt you'll find her on bb.com.

If someone wants to spend all that money on a few pounds of gains, I'll leave you to it. I'm not trying to sway anyone on the merits of a supplement. I dislike talking about all supplements in general because 9/10, teens will really dive into things like NoXplode as the missing link to "da gainz".

I don't endorse $50-100 on 50 days worth of negligible gains. That's my experience.