Back not responding/growing

[Kiwi]

I'm having trouble getting my back to develop, despite being reasonably strong, working hard and eating well. Other body parts are developing fine.

For background, I'm a 200lb 33 year old male training on an upper/lower split. I train with weights four days per week (each workout twice).

The back part of my workout looks something like this:

Bent row 3 or 4 sets
pulldown 3 sets

I also deadlift once per week. I made fantastic progress in the deadlift in my last training cycle and got up to 170kg for 6 reps. I don't think I'm overtraining or under eating generally, as I wouldn't have made great progress in every other body part during the last training cycle.

Basically all parts of my back need work - upper middle back, lats and traps too. From my own observations of my training I think that I seem to need a fair bit higher volume of work for my back relative to say chest.

The other problem has been muscle feel during back exercises. If I do lat pulldowns for max poundage (still using acceptable form) I notice that my biceps tend to take over from the lats, as my biceps are relatively strong. I've started experimenting with lowering the weight for lat pulldowns, but really focussing on making the lats do the contracting - but I don't know if this is a good change or a recipe for disaster????

I also tried olympic t bar rows (olympic bar in a corner, weighted on one end) for the first time last week and loved it! I had much better muscle feel from it, and on the areas of the back that I feel need the most work.

Can you give my some guidance on how I might change my back work exercises or volume etc to get it growing again - for instance how much work might I need to do for back if it is the case that I need extra volume?

Any help is much appreciated.

[dbcb314]

My back was weak and shitty as hell before this summer.

I started doing a 5x5 static 2x a week with rows and my thickness improved a ton.

Another thing I did was start to cheat a little on the rows. With super strict rows, my weights weren't going up. I started cheated a bit and my weights started going up and my back started getting thicker and stronger.

Have you tried pull ups or chins instead of lat pulldowns? And you need to concentrate on using your hands as hooks and pull back with your elbows. You may want to try using straps and/or a suicide grip when doing lat pulldowns or pull ups. That seemed to help me as well.

[Diesel46]

Originally Posted by dbcb314

You may want to try using straps and/or a suicide grip when doing lat pulldowns or pull ups. That seemed to help me as well.

Is suicide grip a thumbless pronated grip? I find that that type of grip makes me feel my lats contracting more. I personally find that doing rows one day and weighted chins/pull-ups the next upper body workout works best for me doing 4-5 work sets using reps in the 5-8 range, as long as the weights go up I know im on the right track. Add in some face pulls for higher reps (10-12) as well, they really helped me thicken up my upper back.

[RobF]

Originally Posted by Diesel46

Is suicide grip a thumbless pronated grip? I find that that type of grip makes me feel my lats contracting more. I personally find that doing rows one day and weighted chins/pull-ups the next upper body workout works best for me doing 4-5 work sets using reps in the 5-8 range, as long as the weights go up I know im on the right track. Add in some face pulls for higher reps (10-12) as well, they really helped me thicken up my upper back.

Concur on the face pulls for sure....

[dbcb314]

Originally Posted by Diesel46

Is suicide grip a thumbless pronated grip? I find that that type of grip makes me feel my lats contracting more. I personally find that doing rows one day and weighted chins/pull-ups the next upper body workout works best for me doing 4-5 work sets using reps in the 5-8 range, as long as the weights go up I know im on the right track. Add in some face pulls for higher reps (10-12) as well, they really helped me thicken up my upper back.

yes, suicide grip = thumb less grip

[zpapa21]

Originally Posted by dbcb314

yes, suicide grip = thumb less grip

also called an open grip.

[cantala]

Originally Posted by zpapa21

also called an open grip.

wear a steel caped boot for that

[Mudge]

Others may disagree but to me your back routine is lacking in neccessary volume. Rows rows rows, more than 3-4 sets and BOR are only a starting point. No cable rows for you? No Hammer ISO rows? Dumbell? I like to switch it up and do 2-3 rowing movements, pulldowns? If and when I do them I will throw in a couple sets, 3-4 if I'm on a seriously high volume kick.

The back is a complex group of muscles and needs more volume and variety both IMO.

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by Mudge

Others may disagree but to me your back routine is lacking in neccessary volume. Rows rows rows, more than 3-4 sets and BOR are only a starting point. No cable rows for you? No Hammer ISO rows? Dumbell? I like to switch it up and do 2-3 rowing movements, pulldowns? If and when I do them I will throw in a couple sets, 3-4 if I'm on a seriously high volume kick.

The back is a complex group of muscles and needs more volume and variety both IMO.

This advice is in line with what I was beginning to suspect. I've just been getting confused when I read a fair bit claiming that not a lot of volume is necessary in bodybuilding - and this may be true of some muscle group's perhaps - for instance I feel that my chest doesn't seem to need too much volume.

However, when training on an upper/lower split, adding more volume for back means that the overall routine could get fairly lengthy. I'll be looking at 20+ total sets (for all body parts - not just back) and that will require slightly over an hour to get through. Is that a problem or not? I should add that I seem to have quite good recovery ability - I can train heavy four days per week for 8 or 9 weeks before I need to de-load.

Mudge - were you questioning the value of pulldowns as an exercise in absolute terms, or did you just mean that with limitations on how much I can include in my routine I'll tend to see better development by prioritising more rowing movements?

Does the following look sufficient, or do you think even a bit more volume should be added?

Bent rows 4 sets
dumbell row 2 sets
Pulldown (wide or close grip variation) 2 sets

[Sand Blaster]

I agree with Mudge for the most part. Back is one of the few bodyparts that I don't think I have ever overtrained even at higher volume. The problem is that more volume for the back often translates into overtraining in general given the demands of back training.

Using time under tension is very effective for some of your back sets. You are probably not getting enough growth because you TUT is minor, and you are mainly getting CNS adaptation making you stronger, but not necessarily bigger.

Ideally, you want three types of movements: a row, a pulldown, and some kind of rotation exercise like a straight arm pullover done from a high pulley. 2 sets of each would work if you vary your tempo times.

For instance,
Barbell Rows--
Set 1: 5 reps, 1/2 tempo using roughly a 6 rep max weight.
Set 2: 10 reps, 2/2 tempo with a 12 rep max weight or so.

Front Pulldowns
Set 1: 5 reps, 1/2 tempo using about a 6 rep max weight
Set 2: 12 reps, 2/2 temp using about a 15 rep max weight

Straight Arm Pulldowns/Pullovers from a High Pulley
Set 1: 10 reps using a 2/2 tempo with a 15 rep max weight
Set 2: 10 reps using a 2/2 tempo with the same weight.

You will be on fire if you do that. Keep your rest periods between sets to 1.5 minutes and 2 minutes between exercises.

SB