A Request

[iron addict]

Trouble,

Would it be possible to create a thread/post outlining the metabolic/genetic differences between skinny-fat hardgainers and pure skinny hardgainers? I think this would be great reference material if it is something you can do without taking too much time. If so, make it a sticky in the hardgainers section. If not I understand. Your time is extremely valuable--more so than most would or do appreciate.

IA

[trouble]

pathogens in gut cause the formation of an unusual ratio of acetate to propionate to butyrate. Acetate is converted to glutamate in liver, excess glutamate causes insulin release in pancreas. Acetate and butyrate also signal for excess glycogen production in liver. This is the first step to insulin resistance.

Meanwhile, glutamate induced cAMP activity in intestines signals guanidine acetate methyltransferase (GAMT) biosynthesis in liver and pancreas. Secretin excess from stomach (CNS action of glutamate on stomach receptors) also signals for glucagon release, which acts in concert with insulin to cause creatine synthesis from S-adenosylmethionine and guanidinacetic acid. Glucagon directly stimulates GAMT activity of liver. The effect of glucagon is enhanced by insulin.

So sam-e ceases to be able to do its thing, because its being sucked up to make creatine in gut (causing local swelling of the tissue). Eventually, the situation is that glucagon signalling is downregulating two very important systems:

Cysteine synthesis and tryptophan synthesis. So we got two sulfur enzymes now toast (methionine and cysteine cycles that determine GABA are now dysfunctional...worsening glutamate sensitivity in beta islet cells due to a lack of glutamate balancing GABA).

I told you that sulfur amino acids in the TS and methionone cycles, via taurine and glutathione, play a big role in insulin sensitivity.

Tryptophan, you may recall, is part of the serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine complex that is downregulated in the diabetic ...and in the GERD patient as well.

Sleep is effected eventually, and this causes cortisol that worsens hyperglycemia and yes, insulin release via enhanced glycogen production.

Fatty liver, VAT storage of fat. The skinny fat ectomorph, with dyslipidemia.

There is more going on in other cells. GLUT4 is being downreg'ed by excess glycogen in liver. Numerous other issues are firing up in liver as well, causing upregulation of cholesterol synthesis, for instance.

[farmer]

IA

This may be something we need to look at with me. If you take a look at my original questionnaire, you will see where I mentioned my mid-section being distended. Even when my bodyfat is very low my abdomen sticks out. I always thought it was due to interabdominal fat, but I'm wondering if it could be due to the problem mentioned above concerning the creatine and bloating.

[trouble]

Whether you are an endo or an ecto, you must:

1. Correct excitation chemistry in brain. Supply GABA and gluthathione from supplements until liver function is restored.

2. Change basic response to stress and develop a low key lifestyle that focuses on normal sleep hygiene, regular mental conditioning with meditation practice.

3. This is critital --> restore methylation balance, methionine and cysteine cycling thru the sulfur pathsways in liver, gut, brains. Not too much, not too little.

4. Recondition the gut to restore proper absorption, microbial metabolism, liver and accessory organ secretion.

5. Restore liver function to renormalize cholesterol metabolism, vitamin and cofactor biosynthesis. Supps get you started...but:

You can't get healthy gut function if you ain't got the right bugs.

You can't get the right bugs without the right diet.

You can't get and keep the right bugs without normal liver function.

You can't get normal brain-liver-gut communications (and functional regulation) without

a. cardiovascular conditions to restore proper OXYGEN supply and prevent hypoxia in all tissues.
b. you don't have proper glucose regulation in muscle cells and brain


(I will explain this hypoxia business elsewhere. Hypoxia (breath holding) MIMICS and drives low methylation status. This is yet another critically important concept to grasp. If you hold your breath due to automatic stress reflex conditioning, you cause brain and cardiovascular system hypoxia.


================================================== ============

See this intergral pattern, Farmer??

Thats why I could NOT just give you laundry list of supps to take.

That would be easy to do, but it would NOT be the right thing to do, cause it wouldn't fix the problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now hear this: this progression of fixes PREVENTS AND CORRECTS the abnormal metabolic conditions that underlie MOST if not ALL CHRONIC DISEASES observed in modern man.

[farmer]

Absolutely. Nor do I expect a list of supps to fix the problem. I just happened to notice a correlation between my situation and what was being discussed here. I could not think of a better way to describe myself than "skinny-fat hardgainer".

We have several competitive bodybuilders in our gym who have been at this for 20 some odd years. They really have an eye for such things. When they look at my arms, chest, back and legs, they all agree that I'm about 4% bf. Then I show them my abdomen and they say, "well maybe 10 or 12%".

You'll have to excuse my lack of understanding of the language you use. It's been a long time since I sat in bio class.

[trouble]

Put yourself in my shoes. I have to grasp enough of the important puzzle pieces to come up with the progression of solution steps.

And in order for the solution to work, virtually all facets of life have to be addressed.

physiological history
present health status
diet and supplements
mental fitness, gearing, and neurochemical balance
social function and balance, including support network
spiritual connection to ourselves, others, universe

These facets fit into a flow of mass and energy within yourself and also within the larger environment. Its meant to function as a cycled, balanced system. What we call an open system, with mass and energy movements across system boundaries.

(birth)A------>B (death) is one part of a larger cycle

A ----> produce and raise offspring ------------>B

For instance:

How can you let go of this pervasive fear of death if you don't accept and appreciate your place as logical and natural, within much larger ongoing cycles??

Overcoming this fear is freeing. It allows you to focus on making the very best use of your time, regardless of the outcome of your consciousness after death.

It also prevents you from being caught in the rat race of endlessly preparing for tomorrow and ignoring the present, or focusing on the past, gone and beyond our power to change it because you are unhappy with your present.

This is what is meant by living in the present. Its fully appreciating your place, in this notch of spacetime (this moment). You reconnoiter where you are, what you have, and work with it to accept the yin and yang that life throws at us. You come to appreciate the plasticity of reality, the full connection between cause and effect.

I'm here to help you grasp the knowledge that makes you the catalyst for change, to direct the present to its best possible balance of mass and energy, and this balance, this influences your future.

We do this, because it makes every moment the best possible moment to be alive and also the best possible outcome.

At the end: no regrets you've done your level best.

[Mudge]

Chuck Liddell has the same thing, even when he has a 6 pack his stomach sticks out a bit.

[wrangle]

"Your time is extremely valuable--more so than most would or do appreciate."

I appreciate and take in everythign she posts.

however she is starting to scare me a little with how much she knows
:eek:

[Odium]

1. Correct excitation chemistry in brain. Supply GABA and gluthathione from supplements until liver function is restored.

Any idea why even 1/4 tsp of GABA causes me to get very anxious (and racing thoughts) within minutes of digestion?

[trouble]

Chuck Liddell has the same thing, even when he has a 6 pack his stomach sticks out a bit.


Protrouding gut while the gut is defined, is another matter entirely. Thats more likely growth hormone gut, caused by enlargement of the viscera from extended growth hormone use. Its gotten to be quite bad among the heavyweight bbers. Not a good thing.

[trouble]

You and Wrangle both have the same sensitivity to GABA. Try using theanine instead.

You may have an allergy to GABAnergic herb that has caused this sensitivity. I wouldn't use it for the time being. I couldn't find evidence for this sensitivity, but plenty for various anxiolytic herbs, including Valarian.

Wrangle has had an especially hard time with this unexpected reaction to (I believe) valarian (which has gaba-like action).

[Mudge]

I know BBers have had the problem since Dorian and beyond. Chuck Liddell is a fighter, he isn't that big, maybe not even 200 pounds. I couldn't really tell by looking at him if he is a performance enhancing kind of guy or not, if he is then he reacts pretty badly to GH I'd say.

[farmer]

I've never run GH so I assumed I had interabdominal fat. I believe visceral fat is the correct term.????

[wrangle]

You and Wrangle both have the same sensitivity to GABA. Try using theanine instead.

You may have an allergy to GABAnergic herb that has caused this sensitivity. I wouldn't use it for the time being. I couldn't find evidence for this sensitivity, but plenty for various anxiolytic herbs, including Valarian.

Wrangle has had an especially hard time with this unexpected reaction to (I believe) valarian (which has gaba-like action).


Yup, me and odium are in the same shoes- we are trouble for trouble!:D

[trouble]

Just following up on a hunch, on this exceptional sensitivity to GABA. How much taurine are you using, Odium?

[Odium]

1/2 tsp 4-6 times a day. So I guess that's about 8-12grams.

[trouble]

Okey dokey. I think you might be very sensitive to GABA. Taurine is potentiating this sensitivity.

Cut back to 6 grams or less of taurine. Can you report back to us in about a week? I'd like to know the result.

[Odium]

If you want, I can try dropping it altogether except for before bed.

Any idea what this means?

[trouble]

Screwup in glutamate metabolism or in the receptor itself (a chloride channel).

See: http://www.genome.ad.jp/dbget-bin/get_pathway?org_name=hsa&mapno=00251

Glutamate and GABA

Glutamate and its decarboxylated derivative gamma aminobutyric acid (GABA) are the major excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters in the central nervous system, respectively. Glutamate decarboxylase is a pyridoxal-phosphate dependent protein removing the alpha-carboxyl group from glutamate.

(weak point number one: glutamate buildup by low synthesis rates of GABA (as these two are intraconvertible).

GABA, if not used as neurotransmitter, can be deaminated to form succinate by an aminotransferase reaction involving the conversion of a-ketoglutarate to glutamate. Thus, succinate can be generated from alpha-ketoglutarate in a citric acid cycle by-pass reaction located in the cytoplasm of neurons. This process is known as GABA shunt. (see the link I provided for glutamate metabolism)

(weak point number two: excess glutamate might keep the shunt from functioning correctly)

GABA is one of the brain's major inhibitory neurotransmitter by activating a chloride selective receptor ion channel (GABA receptor). The active phase of these chloride conducting channels stabilizes the negative resting potential of the post-synaptic membrane, counteracting any stimulatory activity by glutamate or acetylcholine.

(weak point 3: chloride ion channel activation isn't working correctly - polymorphic issue?)

I wouldn't give up taurine; you need it in liver and brain, as in spinal chord.

Try lowering the dose instead.

[Pale Rider]

I know BBers have had the problem since Dorian and beyond. Chuck Liddell is a fighter, he isn't that big, maybe not even 200 pounds. I couldn't really tell by looking at him if he is a performance enhancing kind of guy or not, if he is then he reacts pretty badly to GH I'd say.


Chuck, before he cuts, is probably AT LEAST 215. Probably more actually. Chuck has that trailer park gut, lol. But seriousely, I don't think he's doing GH. If so, he's getting ripped off. He's definately not even close to being one of the more muscular fighters. I think a lot of his large stomach size just comes from genetics, & also a lot of core strength training & conditioning. Part of the reason he hits so damn hard.