Question for Trouble on Morning insulin and Cortisol?

[Dobermann]

Trouble,

Do you see any problems with my nutritonal stratergy for morning cardio?

07.30 Rise and consume 1xEgg white 1xStrong Black coffe
08.00 30-45 minutes on treadmill @ 10% Incline @ 3mph.
08.30 Consume various supp's along with anti-catabolic wonder stack 5g BCAA's 5g Creatine 5g Taurine 2g Fish Oil's
09.00 Breakfast 10 egg whites 100g of low-fat cheese, 25g Oatmeal


As im trying to keep cortisol and insulin spiking to a minimum but at the same time preventing catabolism.How do you feel about the above stratergy? Coffe has the benefit of libertaing FFA which is what im trying to accomplish with L.I.C as opposed to HIIT.However im sure it is also spking insulin and cortisol? i'd very much like your educated opinion on this stratergy and it's suitablity for my soma-type the functional ecto.

In fact trouble, how do you feel about caffine in general? esp morning and with carb meals :shoot3:

[trouble]

You may see yourself as a functional ectomorph; my read is that you have insulin sensitivity issues.

Lets see.

1. Cortisol am naturally rises to a peak at about 10am, you're hitting your CNS with a beta adrenergic activator KNOWN to block insulin receptor in muscle cell. Its action is through epinephrine response in liver, kidney and muscle.

Thus, you are damaging glucose metabolism by fueling epinephrine (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/92/6/2347) release, to enhanced fatty acid release and use as fuel.

Do not fuck with glucose metabolism - its counterproductive for androgen receptor activation and for the CNS action you DO want => thats ACh (acetylcholine) activation of muscle fiber motor units - that determines muscle cell viability (whether or not its gets chowed for fuel) and hypertrophy.

See, even if you have sufficient fat stores (and you a functional ecotmorphy would not have much because you don't store fat well), your body will preferentially break down protein for amino acid derived glucose. That part of energy metabolism won't be impaired by caffeine, but the glucose utilization will.

You will be catabolic (in cell protein breakdown mode) from your over night fast.

Thats insult added to injury, in my book.

2. Then you turn around and use oatmeal and lactose from the cottage cheese. Oh good, where is that glucose going to go? Into fat cells, because it can't be used for fueling muscle, you're desensitizing muscle and liver for glycogen storage, and you are making damn sure that you won't reform creatine or glycogen because of water balance issues.

Nope, don't see much use for this strategy. Fuel your muscles by eating a light protein feed with a little lower glycemic load carb (oat or rice bran) and supply a modest bridging protein (a little egg white or cottage cheese) and olive oil, and then eat your larger breakfast a little latter after your cardio.

I suggest green tea and extra water rather than coffee first thing in the morning. Insulin excess and epinephrine drive cortisol release, and thus its counterintuitive for your weight loss purposes. You don't want to suck down a dehydrator like coffee just before exertion anyway - do you?

[Dobermann]

You may see yourself as a functional ectomorph; my read is that you have insulin sensitivity issues.

Lets see.

1. Cortisol am naturally rises to a peak at about 10am, you're hitting your CNS with a beta adrenergic activator KNOWN to block insulin receptor in muscle cell. Its action is through epinephrine response in liver, kidney and muscle.

Thus, you are damaging glucose metabolism by fueling epinephrine (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/92/6/2347) release, to enhanced fatty acid release and use as fuel.

Do not fuck with glucose metabolism - its counterproductive for androgen receptor activation and for the CNS action you DO want => thats ACh (acetylcholine) activation of muscle fiber motor units - that determines muscle cell viability (whether or not its gets chowed for fuel) and hypertrophy.

See, even if you have sufficient fat stores (and you a functional ecotmorphy would not have much because you don't store fat well), your body will preferentially break down protein for amino acid derived glucose. That part of energy metabolism won't be impaired by caffeine, but the glucose utilization will.

You will be catabolic (in cell protein breakdown mode) from your over night fast.

Thats insult added to injury, in my book.

2. Then you turn around and use oatmeal and lactose from the cottage cheese. Oh good, where is that glucose going to go? Into fat cells, because it can't be used for fueling muscle, you're desensitizing muscle and liver for glycogen storage, and you are making damn sure that you won't reform creatine or glycogen because of water balance issues.

Nope, don't see much use for this strategy. Fuel your muscles by eating a light protein feed with a little lower glycemic load carb (oat or rice bran) and supply a modest bridging protein (a little egg white or cottage cheese) and olive oil, and then eat your larger breakfast a little latter after your cardio.

I suggest green tea and extra water rather than coffee first thing in the morning. Insulin excess and epinephrine drive cortisol release, and thus its counterintuitive for your weight loss purposes. You don't want to suck down a dehydrator like coffee just before exertion anyway - do you?

__________________________________________________ __________

Ok trouble so from what I think I understand, as a "functional ecto" im risking muscle wasting from not eating enough protien pre-cardio from my 9 hour fast.And add'ing insult to injury with
caffine which is blunting insulin sensitivity.Which causes the breakfast im eating to be stored as fat.

Here is my revised plan

1.)07.45 1xEgg White/ 1(Tsp) olive oil /Green Tea and H2'o/ 25g Oats? I dont think we have oat bran this side of the pond.
08.15 *fasted* Morning Cardio
09.00 Egg Whites and Cheese + Coffe + H.E.A.T and various mounting supplements

I think? you mean me to have a bigger *bridge* without the caffine before I undertake my cardio followed by breakfast proper. I have to be carfull with carbs as im on a semi-keto diet so my allowance it capped at 70-100g a day.

2.) As regards the functional ecto I assume im that type as thats the desciption you gave me.or am I misunderstanding something? in fact WTF is a functional ecto anyway?? I always assumed im an ecto with insulin and cortisol issues.With the potential to become a meso once said problems are add'ressed.Are you planning on producing a thickys guide to somatypes at any point please T?


Edit: I found an online retailer that stocks oat-bran and barley flakes! :-)

[discuslifter]

You may see yourself as a functional ectomorph; my read is that you have insulin sensitivity issues.

Lets see.

1. Cortisol am naturally rises to a peak at about 10am, you're hitting your CNS with a beta adrenergic activator KNOWN to block insulin receptor in muscle cell. Its action is through epinephrine response in liver, kidney and muscle.

Where did you come up with the 10 am figure? My ASI results show something quite different.

[trouble]

Cortisol is well known to rise sharply 45 minutes to an hour after awakening and to continue rising for several hours before peaking. Do a search on early morning peak and cortisol. See this article (http://www.nutrition4health.org/NOHAnews/NNW02HardingAging.htm) on cortisol and lifestyle pattern interactions.

What do you ASI results show?

[Dobermann]

Cortisol is well known to rise sharply 45 minutes to an hour after awakening and to continue rising for several hours before peaking. Do a search on early morning peak and cortisol. See this article (http://www.nutrition4health.org/NOHAnews/NNW02HardingAging.htm) on cortisol and lifestyle pattern interactions.

What do you ASI results show?

Trouble,


How does my revised meal plan look? im a bit confused at the specific timimng of your meal comp recomendations.


Thank's

[trouble]

Eat soon after rising or you send your cortisol AND insulin levels up. Exnay with the ECAs and caffeine. Sure you are losing weight, but you are also losing a little muscle as well, since you are burning protein for energy.

[Dobermann]

Eat soon after rising or you send your cortisol AND insulin levels up. Exnay with the ECAs and caffeine. Sure you are losing weight, but you are also losing a little muscle as well, since you are burning protein for energy.

Ok , but I take it the meal shouldent be too big?! otherwise wouldent it negate the effect of L.I.C? Thats why I thought I understood it from your post that I should have an egg white some LGI carbs and a little fat before cardio as a bridge and breakfast proper after.Or would it be better to just have a full breakfast AND then do the cardio? im really looking for an "optimal" answer if possible.How would a thermogenic like H.E.A.T fit in as well? I usually take that pre-cardio but as your advising against EC and Coffe pre workout , perhaps certain supps might be best taken after as well? as posted above im usibg 1g Green Tea and 3x H.E.A.T pre-cardio.

Great article on Cortisol BTW it's wasy for the layman to understand and very informative.It goes a long way to explaning my tiredness at times of the day even when iv'e had 8-9 hours of sleep.

Perhaps IA could post some stickies or articles like the above and or common questions you get asked in a format the layman could understand.So as to save you from having to reply to 10000 threads.

[trouble]

Its a little tricky knowing how much to eat before cardio. Enough to supply energy, since you're in deficit, but how well you tolerate food before cardio early morning is unknown to me. I would def do a shake of some kind and include that bridge protein. I would wait and have a full breakfast afterwards if you can afford it timewise (some can't).

You read up on HEAT and make up your own mind on whether to use it or not.

I will be eventually writing a FAQ, I don't have time to do it now.

[discuslifter]

Cortisol is well known to rise sharply 45 minutes to an hour after awakening and to continue rising for several hours before peaking. Do a search on early morning peak and cortisol. See this article (http://www.nutrition4health.org/NOHAnews/NNW02HardingAging.htm) on cortisol and lifestyle pattern interactions.

What do you ASI results show?


My ASI shows a high level at 7 am and a much much lower level at noon. Basically highest levels at 7 am and an approximately exponential decay of cortisol levels through the day, 12 pm, 6 pm, and 10 pm.

If it raised from the quite high level at 7 am to an even higher level at 10 am, how would it drop so drastically by noon?

[trouble]

Cortisol is know to begin rising as early as 4am. It can peak between 8-noon, most often seen peaking a couple hours after awakening. If people sleep in until 7, that can be as late as 10am peak time.

What time do you normally get up? 5am for exercise or to get ready for work?

What time do you go to bed? That typically accounts for variations in Circadian (bioclock) Rhythms.

[discuslifter]

Cortisol is know to begin rising as early as 4am. It can peak between 8-noon, most often seen peaking a couple hours after awakening. If people sleep in until 7, that can be as late as 10am peak time.

What time do you normally get up? 5am for exercise or to get ready for work?

What time do you go to bed? That typically accounts for variations in Circadian (bioclock) Rhythms.


I got up at 7 am, immediately salivated into the tube, then did another at noon, another at 6 pm, and then another right before bed at 10 pm. It showed an exponential-like decay in cortisol levels.

[trouble]

According to this brand new article (http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/16/4415), your sharp decline and period of rise (regardlessof the hour, its before midmorning) indicate that you have an as yet normal cortisol curve response. (see the very end of the abstract)

In chronically stressed individuals, salivary cortisol doesn't peak as rapidly or decay as quickly.

In fact, I've mentioned elsewhere that colic prone babies are examples of early GERD syndrome.

Just see just how true this is, and how its related to cortisol and its counter, in body clock control, lets take a quick peak at the relationship between colic symptoms, personality, cortisol release and sleep patterns for infants.

Now, you wouldn't think that these tiny kiddies would have a problem.

But, then again, they got months of HPA conditioning in utero, from their stressed Mammas.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Behavioral and physiological responsivity, sleep, and patterns of daily cortisol production in infants with and without colic. White BP, Gunnar MR, Larson MC, Donzella B, Barr RG. Child Dev. 2000 Jul-Aug;71(4):862-77.

To describe the behavioral and physiological responses associated with colic, the responses of 20 two-month-old infants with and 20 without colic were studied during a physical examination. Parents kept a diary of infant behaviors (including crying and fussing) for 3 days following the visit. Using Wessel, Cobb, Jackson, Harris, & Detwiler criteria, colic was defined as fussing/crying for 3 hr or more on each of the 3 days. Behavioral data coded by "blind" observers showed that during the physical exam, colic infants cried twice as much, cried more intensely, and were more inconsolable than were control infants. Despite these behavioral differences, heart rate, vagal tone, and cortisol measures indicated no appreciable difference in physiological responsivity for the two groups.

At home, parents collected saliva cortisol samples at wakeup, midmorning, midafternoon, and evening for 2 days. In a finding similar to that shown by the laboratory data, the colic and control infants did not have different levels of daily average cortisol. These laboratory and home data provide no evidence of greater responsivity in the physiological substrate of difficult temperament for colic infants and are consistent with evidence of similarity in temperament once colic is resolved.

At home, compared with control infants, colic infants did display a blunted rhythm in cortisol production. By diary, they also slept about 2 hr less per day than did control infants. Nighttime sleep was still significantly different when fussing/crying was statistically controlled.

---> These data suggest that colic might be associated with a disruption or delay in the establishment of the circadian rhythm in activity of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical axis and associated sleep-wake activity.

================================================== ===============

See what I mean here? We got early fricking programming of the HPA going on. Colic is just what it sounds like, gastric reflux, caused by excessive stimulation of the gut under prolonged higher cortisol levels that should drop by early midday, but don't decay as quickly in stressed induhviduals. The complication is that these little kids are developing their digestive tract action and are a little more sensitive to upset than they will be in a year or so. Think of it as an early warning indicator of potential problems down the road.

Its a pattern that will be repeated later on in early adult life, for these colicky kiddies.

Ya know, the patterns that are emerging from the recent literature are overwhelming obvious in their connections. I'm just the messenger here, but the news ain't good.

Sleep patterns are an improtant regulator of not just cortisol, but the progenitor to HPA regulation, up in the forebrain. And that, is where the action of glutamate and GABA battle for ocntrol over excitatory synapses in information processing intense brain loci.

I love you guys. I would never find some of these most excellent citations if you didn't ask these great questions.

[wrangle]

You may see yourself as a functional ectomorph; my read is that you have insulin sensitivity issues.

Lets see.

1. Cortisol am naturally rises to a peak at about 10am, you're hitting your CNS with a beta adrenergic activator KNOWN to block insulin receptor in muscle cell. Its action is through epinephrine response in liver, kidney and muscle.

Thus, you are damaging glucose metabolism by fueling epinephrine (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/92/6/2347) release, to enhanced fatty acid release and use as fuel.

Do not fuck with glucose metabolism - its counterproductive for androgen receptor activation and for the CNS action you DO want => thats ACh (acetylcholine) activation of muscle fiber motor units - that determines muscle cell viability (whether or not its gets chowed for fuel) and hypertrophy.

See, even if you have sufficient fat stores (and you a functional ecotmorphy would not have much because you don't store fat well), your body will preferentially break down protein for amino acid derived glucose. That part of energy metabolism won't be impaired by caffeine, but the glucose utilization will.

You will be catabolic (in cell protein breakdown mode) from your over night fast.

Thats insult added to injury, in my book.

2. Then you turn around and use oatmeal and lactose from the cottage cheese. Oh good, where is that glucose going to go? Into fat cells, because it can't be used for fueling muscle, you're desensitizing muscle and liver for glycogen storage, and you are making damn sure that you won't reform creatine or glycogen because of water balance issues.

Nope, don't see much use for this strategy. Fuel your muscles by eating a light protein feed with a little lower glycemic load carb (oat or rice bran) and supply a modest bridging protein (a little egg white or cottage cheese) and olive oil, and then eat your larger breakfast a little latter after your cardio.

I suggest green tea and extra water rather than coffee first thing in the morning. Insulin excess and epinephrine drive cortisol release, and thus its counterintuitive for your weight loss purposes. You don't want to suck down a dehydrator like coffee just before exertion anyway - do you?


If he eats the egg, olive oil and the carb before cardio will he not jsut burn that off for energy during his cardio instead of dippign into his fat stores and burning only fat as he would simply doing fasted cardio? I have read even 15-20 G protein 20 min before cardio will be converted and used for energy via gluconeogenesis, thus it is counterproductive.


you said a functional ecto does not store fat well, curious to know what exactly that ment- do you imply that cardio Rx for ectos are different than from Meso's or the like?

[trouble]

If he eats the egg, olive oil and the carb before cardio will he not jsut burn that off for energy during his cardio instead of dippign into his fat stores and burning only fat as he would simply doing fasted cardio? I have read even 15-20 G protein 20 min before cardio will be converted and used for energy via gluconeogenesis, thus it is counterproductive.

you said a functional ecto does not store fat well, curious to know what exactly that ment- do you imply that cardio Rx for ectos are different than from Meso's or the like?

What do you want to burn during exertion, glucose stored as glycogen, stored fatty acids, or glucose from amino acid catabolism?

You burn all three sources, plus you get energy from phosphocreatine. Depends on which pathways are being used up the quickest, and that depends on the fibers being activated in muscle and their energy pathways.

I got a sticky in the studies section on muscle physiology that explains it, and provides diagrams (what I call cartoons) as well.

If Dobermann is doing cardio to burn off excess fat, his primary energy is from glucose and Krebs Cycle fatty acids later on, after exercise, from modest stored fat metabolism.

[Dobermann]

What do you want to burn during exertion, glucose stored as glycogen, stored fatty acids, or glucose from amino acid catabolism?

You burn all three sources, plus you get energy from phosphocreatine. Depends on which pathways are being used up the quickest, and that depends on the fibers being activated in muscle and their energy pathways.

I got a sticky in the studies section on muscle physiology that explains it, and provides diagrams (what I call cartoons) as well.

If Dobermann is doing cardio to burn off excess fat, his primary energy is from glucose and Krebs Cycle fatty acids later on, after exercise, from modest stored fat metabolism.


Hello T,

In answer to the above question Yes im trying to burn BF via cardio.Trouble you have indentified that I have cortisol "problems" VAT etc.etc I was wondering if it would be at all helpfull if I took one of these rather cool online Cortisol tests!? or is it a case of we know what the problem is so whats the point?

[trouble]

You problem is simple. You don't need tests; you need to adhere to diet and refrain from over stimulating your HPA for weightloss, while resisting the urge to feed on comfort foods when you're stressed.

[Dobermann]

You problem is simple. You don't need tests; you need to adhere to diet and refrain from over stimulating your HPA for weightloss, while resisting the urge to feed on comfort foods when you're stressed.


Well in that case im sorted as my diet is 110% I NEVER feed on comfort foods apart from one 500-1000 kcal cheat meal a week.Stimulating the HPA? would that be via stims? managing insulin is primarily via diet and exericise as those are the two problems you diagnosed me with so check there again.

Seeing as iv'e got your attention if you wouldent mind, could you elaborate on what you meant by calling me a functional ecto but really a meso in disguise?