What oil besides Olive Oil?

[pitbull800]

What other oil is good to use in shakes besides EV olive oil. That shit makes me want to throw up when I drink it.

[CyberGod]

I also use Flax oil

[XX]

pit, are you using the Extra light tasting olive oil or regualr? I cant tolerate the regular variety but hte extra light goes down quick and smooth.

I think some people are fans of coconut, but I have not tried it myself.

[pitbull800]

Its the regular EVOO

[DEANO]

Regular EVOO is much stronger tasting than the extra light evoo. You could also just use the regular olive oil because it has a more mild taste. As a general rule the lighter the oil the lighter the taste.

DEANO

[goes4ever]

Kent nutrition carries an awesome oil that is a blend, it is called omega blend, tastes great too

[RIDE/DIE]

Coconut oil is solid at room temperature (you can cook with it, taste great).
Try avocado Oil.

[XX]

Regular EVOO is much stronger tasting than the extra light evoo.

I think thats and understatement Deano, lol!

I have used regular EVOO before and it comes right back up. The extra light tasting EVOO is no problem- I use Bertollis from Wal mart.

Ride, how is the avocado oil taste? and I didnt know that about coconut oil, thanks for the knowledge.

[lolokos]

Olive and flax should be staples.
You can use canola also.

[Frosty]

Coconut oil can be very good, just have to make sure it's liquid to put it in a shake, and oh yeah, if the water is cold it will solidify when you try to mix it in...yuck lol. It's a very very healthy oil that could help you lose fat and has numerous other benefits. Second best oil after cod liver/fish oil, IMO. If you get an oil that tastes like coconut, it can taste good in vanilla shakes.

I've used cream in shakes before, which makes them taste VERY good.

[rcs6856]

Definitely Cod Liver Oil. Regarding Extra Light EVOO, is it nutritionally the same as regular EVOO? I'm not a big fan of sucking down a tablespoon of EVOO, so if its nutritionally equal, I may go with the Extra Light.

[DEANO]

Not to sure if the nutrients are the same but i would amagine some nutrients would have to be taken away to make it taste that light. But like i said i am not sure.

DEANO

[RIDE/DIE]

History of Olive Oil

It was called “liquid gold” by Homer. The Bible and classical writings refer to it as a symbol of goodness, peace, purity, and happiness. Noah brought its branch onto his ark to signal the end of the flood. To the people of the Mediterranean, it has held powers of healing and has been a symbol of abundance and wealth.

It is olive oil. Historians believe that the first olive tree was found in Syria about 6,000 years ago, making its way to neighboring countries around 5,000 years ago. By 3,000 B.C., olives were being cultivated in Crete. Until 1,500 B.C., Greece was the region where olives were most heavily harvested. The long, dry, and warm summers along with the fine-textured soil made it an ideal home for the olive trees to grow. Olive farming eventually spread to Cyprus, Turkey, southern Italy, northern Africa, Spain, Portugal and southern France.

Along with their dreams of exploration and conquest, the Spaniards brought olive cultivation to the West Indies and the Americas. This fragrant oil-producing tree eventually found its way into Argentina, Chile, Peru, Mexico, and California.
Today, olive oils are produced in Australia, South Africa, and efforts are being made even in China.

Extra Virgin Olive Oil- Cold Presses

The supreme olive oils are made from olives that are hand-picked during harvest seasons October and November. They are immediately taken to a mill where they are crushed, and oil and water is extracted from the olive fruit. The oil is filtered and left to settle before being bottled. This is called cold-pressing because it is a chemical-free process that uses little pressure and no heat.

This is a time-consuming and expensive process that is often reflected in the price.

Extra Virgin Oil

The same process of cold-pressing is followed except that metal crushers are used, producing some heat, therefore slightly altering the peppery taste of the olive oil. All Extra-Virgin olive oils contain less than 1% acidity. The taste and color of these oils vary from deeper hues and more intense flavors to green-gold shades and lighter tastes.

It should be mentioned that many Extra Virgin olive oils may claim the name, but some only meet the minimum requirements, being inferior in quality and taste.

This oil is best used for drizzling over salads and prepared dishes.

Virgin Olive Oil

This oil is made from riper olives that are harvested by shaking the tree and amassing the olives that have fallen off. They are also made from further pressings after the first extraction of Extra Virgin oils. The level of acidity is between 11/2%-2%, and it has a lighter color and a milder perfume than that of Extra Virgin oils.

Virgin olive oils are less delicate than the Extra Virgin oils and are best for roasting or grilling.

Pure Olive Oil

This oil is only called pure because no non-olive oils are added. The harvested olives are crushed and pressed using heat and water to obtain the most oil as possible. A small amount of Extra Virgin oil is added to reduce the high level of acidity.

This mediocre oil often has a tasteless flavor.

Pomace Olive Oil

After the pressing, chemicals are used to remove the oil that remains in the olive grind to produce Pomace Olive Oil. It is mixed with Virgin oil to create some sort of bland oil.

HEALTH BENEFITS OF OLIVE OIL

The health benefits of olive oil are tremendous. It is one of the healthiest foods because of its monosaturated fatty acids and its content of vitamin E and antioxidants. Studies show that the people of the Mediterranean region use olive oil as part of their daily diet, and as a result they have a lower incidence of heart disease, cancer and obesity than in any other country in the world.

The main advantage of using olive oil is that it helps to prevent cardiovascular diseases. Of all the culinary oils, it has the highest level of monosaturated fats, which lowers cholesterol levels. Studies also show that it reduces other health risks such as arterial sclerosis, diabetes, breast cancer, prostrate cancer, osteoporosis, and it helps protect the brain from aging.

BEAUTY BENEFITS OF OLIVE OIL

In ancient times, it was believed that olive oil had healing powers along with secrets of beauty, strength, youth and longevity. Today’s studies show that olive oil assists in delaying the aging process because it contains a high percentage of vitamin E, phenols and other antioxidizing substances. When used in skin care products, it invigorates and moisturizes while having a softening and firming effect on the skin tissue.

An added benefit is that vitamin E improves (or enhances) your sex life.

COOKING AND BAKING WITH OLIVE OIL

Olive oil can be used in everyday cooking: it is the healthiest oil, rich in vitamins with no cholesterol. Chefs use the Extra Virgin olive oil as the magic ingredient in their dishes. You can use it for everything from grilling, frying, and sautéing, to gently drizzling it over finished dishes

such as pasta, risottos and meats. When using oil for sautéing or frying, you don’t need Extra Virgin olive oil since the heat will extract the original flavor. However, when using it as a final touch on a prepared dish, make sure to use high quality olive oil since it will give your dish an added depth and fresh aroma.

In restaurants, a healthier and tastier alternative to spreading butter on bread is dipping the bread into a little bowl of olive oil sprinkled with pepper. You can also use olive oil mixed with vinegar to make a delicious dressing for your salads.
In baked goods, you can use olive oil instead of butter or margarine in recipes to produce a surprisingly delicious taste and a lighter and moister texture. The antioxidants in the olive oil will keep baked goods fresher for a longer period.


Link:http://www.foodandthecity.com/articles/olive_oil_history.html

[Wayngrow]

Kent nutrition carries an awesome oil that is a blend, it is called omega blend, tastes great too


You putting that in a shake or taking it straight. I havn't bought any yet, but I told Kent I would when I ran out. I can't stand Olive Oil either. Never could stand it and back in November I got the flu and threw it up and thats all I could taste all night..........blah.

[juggernaut333]

"The Bible and classical writings refer to it as a symbol of goodness, peace, purity, and happiness. Noah brought its branch onto his ark to signal the end of the flood."

LOL..and u know why?They...for lack of a better word..'dissolved'...cannabis into solution of olive oil and used it for anointing,ingesting,etc,etc...happiness indeed lol

I love olive oil though seriously...I add it to all my shakes except obviously the post workout..Im still working on upping the dose to up my calories I can get close to two tablespoons per shake,,,and I'm getting used to it without feeling nauseus.Im going to have to try coconut oil,that sounds tasty.
And it was mentioned above using olive oil as a dressing..I love using a mixture of OO and lemon juice on my salads..or OO and some herbs/seasonings.YUMMO!

[rcs6856]

I think thats and understatement Deano, lol!

I have used regular EVOO before and it comes right back up. The extra light tasting EVOO is no problem- I use Bertollis from Wal mart.

Ride, how is the avocado oil taste? and I didnt know that about coconut oil, thanks for the knowledge.

Is the oil you and DEANO are using extra light OO or extra light EVOO? I went to my grocery store and they had a ton of EVOO and extra light OO, but no extra light EVOO.

[Whacked]

Can't believe no one mentioned UDO's Oil (by FLORA). Best EFA profile (next to FISH OIL) and tastes awesome in shakes ("butternutty")

[Frosty]

Can't believe no one mentioned UDO's Oil (by FLORA). Best EFA profile (next to FISH OIL) and tastes awesome in shakes ("butternutty")

I'd just say that plant fats aren't a very reliable source for EFAs since it is possible that your body couldn't convert the plant fats into the needed forms for your body to use.

[Whacked]

Then would you say the SAME for FLAX oil and OLIVE oil?

[Frosty]

Then would you say the SAME for FLAX oil and OLIVE oil?

Yes.

While MOST healthy people can convert the alpha linoleic acid into EPA, I doubt most people are in the best of health. Numerous factors can inhibit the body's ability to make the conversion, and excessive plant omega 6 fats (linoleic acid) can be one cause. But it's also important to note that even some healthy people cannot make this conversion in order to be healthy. People whose ancestors were very much carnivorous might not really be able to make this conversion because their bodies changed slightly as to not have the delta 6 desaturase enzyme for this conversion (it was not needed, since they got their EFAs from animals). Irish and Eskimos are two good examples. I'm sure different people have better ability to make the conversion, but I really have no clue, and with most people tracing ancestry can be almost impossible. It would be sheer guess work in most people.

But no matter who you are, I'd rather be on the safe side and take an animal based EFA product like fish oil that already has the forms of the fats our body needs - EPA and DHA. No assuming or guessing going on...you know what you're getting.

[John Benz]

Once again Frosty the teenager is spouting complete nonsense and handing out 100% wrong advice! :D

I know from many years of personal experience that the human body processes and uses vegetable oils just fine, kid. I have found flax oil even more important than glucosamine for sore joints and tendons. Ever since Lakeville Thor convinced me to try 5-6 tbs per day, my elbows and rotator cuffs have been pain-free. Works like magic, and effects are noticeable soon after you start taking it. Plus, there are a multitude of nutritional benefits to be found in flax oil. I now take 3-4 tbs flax as a maintenance dose.

Below is a post from Andrew Thorssen at BB.com. He is an abnormally strong young powerlifter and often rails against the norm...but unlike frosty.....he's usually right. ;)
Look,

I am going to cut through the bullshit here. Literally EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT I HAVE TOLD TO TAKE FLAX OIL AT 5 TABLESPOONS DAILY HAS COMPLTELY GOTTEN RID OF THEIR JOINT PAIN (this is about 25 people)!!! In addition, to again reiterate my point, for the last week I intentionally did not take any flaxseed oil at my normal dose of 5-7 tablespoons daily. Guess what? I could hardly squat yesterday because my joints hurt so bad. I also lost 4 pounds. I bet within a week they will be feeling great again due to the lubricating oil.

Two of the success stories will follow:

My mother in law (well, basically) has fibromyalgia and diabetes. Her joint pain has gone down significantly since she started taking flaxseed oil (3 tablespoons for her).

Also, my buddy George who I lift with when I am in MN hasn't been able to squat for 5 years (he's 41) - he is 5'10'', 265. I would say he's around 13% bf - a freakshow no doubt. ANyway, since he started taking flaxseed oil at my doses, he is squating again.

Seriously people, I am not lying about this. Try it if you have joint pain.
-AT

[John Benz]

Hemp oil contains all 3 omegas- 3,6,9. This makes hemp a complete fat. In addition hemp oil also contains smaller amounts of 3 other unsturated fats in GLA oleic acid and stearidonic acid. This EFA combination is not only unique in the vegetable kingdom, but indispensable for cell growth, circulation, immune function, healthy skin, and the prevention of degenerative diseases.

Hemp oil is considered to be the optiumum requirement for long term human consumption. Continuous use of flax oil has caused concern about an imbalance of EFA in the body. Hemp oil can be used without worries.

I haven't switched to hemp as I'm not sure if it works as well as flax oil on the joints. ;)

[rcs6856]

I have found flax oil even more important than glucosamine for sore joints and tendons

John, have you used a fish oil such as cod liver oil and NOT had the same joint benefits? I've used hemp oil before, though I can't speak to its joint benefits, as at the time I was a youngster with no such worries.

[Frosty]

Once again Frosty the teenager is spouting complete nonsense and handing out 100% wrong advice! :D

I know from many years of personal experience that the human body processes and uses vegetable oils just fine, kid. I have found flax oil even more important than glucosamine for sore joints and tendons. Ever since Lakeville Thor convinced me to try 5-6 tbs per day, my elbows and rotator cuffs have been pain-free. Works like magic, and effects are noticeable soon after you start taking it. Plus, there are a multitude of nutritional benefits to be found in flax oil. I now take 3-4 tbs flax as a maintenance dose.

Below is a post from Andrew Thorssen at BB.com. He is an abnormally strong young powerlifter and often rails against the norm...but unlike frosty.....he's usually right. ;)



John, I'm sure you know that it takes 3000-4000mg of alpha-linoleic acid to equal 300mg of EPA. And that deficiencies of biotin, vitamin E, zinc, B12 and B6 all interfere with the action of delta-6 desaturase enzyme, which is required for the conversion of alpha-linoleic acid to (eventually) EPA. Malnutrition (dieting) and overeating (bulking) also inhibit the D6D, as well as alcohol consumption. The body also doesn't have an unlimited capability to produce the D6D enzyme for this conversion, and taking too much plant fats could inhibit the conversion.

The other problem is that taking 6 tablespoons per day of flax oil gives a whopping 48g of polyunsaturated fats in the diet JUST from supplementation. High levels of polyunsaturated fats are not good because they are prone to oxidation. It doesn't make sense to do this when you can get away with half or even less of a dose of fish oil.

Now tell me, what happens when you replace your 5-6 tbs of flax oil with 1-2 tbs of fish oil?

How do you know the benefit to the joints is a result in EPA? Have you had tests done to show your EPA levels with flax and with fish oil supplementation?

The major point is that plant fats have no EPA or DHA. I think it is unwise to assume that your body can make the conversion, and even if it does, how do you know how much EPA and DHA you're getting? With fish oil you know, because it is already in the oil and it is able to be used faster. DHA is vitally important to the nervous system, and fish oil can contain over 2 grams of DHA per tablespoon. How much flax oil does it take to equal this amount for DHA?

So if I get 1.5g EPA and 2g DHA per tbs of fish oil, how many tbs of flax oil is required to match this? Why would I double or triple my amount of PUFAs when I don't have to?

[Frosty]

Hemp oil contains all 3 omegas- 3,6,9. This makes hemp a complete fat. In addition hemp oil also contains smaller amounts of 3 other unsturated fats in GLA oleic acid and stearidonic acid. This EFA combination is not only unique in the vegetable kingdom, but indispensable for cell growth, circulation, immune function, healthy skin, and the prevention of degenerative diseases.

Hemp oil is considered to be the optiumum requirement for long term human consumption. Continuous use of flax oil has caused concern about an imbalance of EFA in the body. Hemp oil can be used without worries.

I haven't switched to hemp as I'm not sure if it works as well as flax oil on the joints. ;)


You are not considering the rest of the diet when you talk about EFA balance.

Unless you are eating beef from pastured cows, eggs from PASTURED chickens that ROAM pasture freely (very rare), drink milk from only pastured cows, eat chicken from pastured chickens, etc, you are likely to have an omega-3: 6 imbalance. Modern eggs can have a ratio of 3s:6s as bad as 1:20. In this case, an oil like hemp isn't as useful as something like flax or fish oil in restoring the proper balance. This is particularly important if you eat beef, eggs, chicken, etc from the store.

[John Benz]

John, have you used a fish oil such as cod liver oil and NOT had the same joint benefits? I've used hemp oil before, though I can't speak to its joint benefits, as at the time I was a youngster with no such worries.
I take Cod liver oil every day, and it never did a thing to relieve joint pain. I was skeptical until I used the Flax oil at the high dosage. Actually Will Brink was the first recommend it for joint pain.

[John Benz]

written by Will Brink

(And yes, frosty, Will knows more about nutrition than your community college teacher.) ;)

Many bodybuilders and other athletes are starting to see the many benefits of flax oil for all sorts of uses. One obvious use of flax oil is a reduction in pain due to any type of inflammatory condition, including joint troubles. To understand why this is so, the reader must now endure a crash course in the topic of essential fatty acids and the many products made by these fatty acids found in the body. If you already know all this stuff you can skip over this material, but if you don't know it, you will need this information for the rest of the article.

The definition of an essential nutrient is anything the body cannot make itself and therefore must be obtained from the diet. We need to eat an assortment of vitamins and minerals, approximately nine to eleven amino acids, and two fatty acids to stay alive and healthy. The two essential fatty acids (EFAS) are called linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid. The first being an Omega-6 fatty acid and the latter being an Omega-3 fatty acid. If the term "Omega-3 fatty acid" rings a bell for you it should. Fish oils are also well publicized and researched Omega-3 fatty acids (see below) that have been shown to have many benefits. "So what does all this have to do with my aching joints?" you are thinking. Ok, here is the skinny on why you had to endure that previous section. Flax oil is exceptionally high in Omega-3 fatty acids (alpha-linolenic acid). Omega-3 fatty acids, from fish, flax, etc., have been shown in the scientific/medical literature to reduce inflammation of any kind. Remember the "-itis" part of the word relating to joint problems? How do you think non- steroidal anti- inflammatories work? They reduce inflammation, but they also come with potential side effects and health problems. So how does flax oil do this wonderful thing? From both of the essential fatty acids the body makes something called prostaglandins. Prostaglandins are very short lived hormone-like substances that regulate cellular activity on a moment to moment basis. Prostaglandins are directly involved with regulating blood pressure,inflammatory responses, insulin sensitivity, immune responses, anabolic/catabolic processes, and hundreds of other functions known and yet unknown. The long and the short of all this, without going into a long and boring biochemical explanation, is: Omega 3 fatty acids are responsible for forming the anti -inflammatory prostaglandins and the Omega 6 prostaglandins are responsible for making many of the pro-inflammatory prostaglandins, and other products derived from EFAS. A high intake of Omega 3 oils reduces inflammation (and pain) by this mechanism. Obviously, it's a lot more complicated than that, but hey, I only have so much space to write.

People who add in 1-3 tablespoons a day of flax oil to a protein drink, or over a salad, often notice a reduction in pain in their joints, not to mention all the other great things EFAS can do for the hard training bodybuilder. Flax oil can be found in any large health food store under such brands as Flora, Omega, Barleans, and several other names (Even better than flax perhaps, Udo's Choice oil is a great blend of different oils. More info can be found at Udo's site connected to the links section of this web page).

[Frosty]

Why would I double or triple my amount of PUFAs when I don't have to?

Sorry, that was incorrect.

Fish oil contains 3g of PUFA/tbs, which not only makes it more stable, but also more healthy. Flax oil contains on the order of 9g PUFA/tbs. That alone is 3x, and then you need at least twice as much flax to equal fish oil, and probably more when you take into account DHA.

Why would I increase my PUFA SIX to NINE times when I don't have to?

[Frosty]

written by Will Brink

(And yes, frosty, Will knows more about nutrition than your community college teacher.) ;)

Omega-3 fatty acids, from fish, flax, etc., have been shown in the scientific/medical literature to reduce inflammation of any kind.


Did ya miss this part, John? Why would I take over 2 tbs of flax oil when I could take 1 tbs of fish oil? Why would I increase my PUFAs 6-9x when I could just take fish oil instead?

How do you know your body is converting the alpha-linoleic acid into EPA AND DHA?

[John Benz]

Did ya miss this part, John? Why would I take over 2 tbs of flax oil when I could take 1 tbs of fish oil? Why would I increase my PUFAs 6-9x when I could just take fish oil instead?
Fish oil is good and goes hand in hand with flax.
How do you know your body is converting the alpha-linoleic acid into EPA AND DHA?
Who gives a shit as long as it does what it's supposed to? :D

[Frosty]

I take Cod liver oil every day, and it never did a thing to relieve joint pain. I was skeptical until I used the Flax oil at the high dosage. Actually Will Brink was the first recommend it for joint pain.

Omega-3 fatty acids, from fish, flax, etc., have been shown in the scientific/medical literature to reduce inflammation of any kind.

The information you're providing is contradictory. You post a short article as it is some incontrovertible truth yet you contradict it. Which is it?

[Frosty]

Fish oil is good and goes hand in hand with flax.

Who gives a shit as long as it does what it's supposed to? :D

So are you saying that fish oil is not as effective as when taken with flax?

You said I was wrong...so tell me how you know if the alpha-linoleic acid is being converted into EPA and DHA. What if it is being converted only to EPA and very little DHA? This would not be any good, and I am curious as to how you say you know that it does make the conversion just fine.

[Frosty]

I take Cod liver oil every day, and it never did a thing to relieve joint pain. I was skeptical until I used the Flax oil at the high dosage. Actually Will Brink was the first recommend it for joint pain.

How much were you taking?

[sifu]

Frosty you really read to much into this shit. Give it a break man, and lay off of the studies for a while.

[Frosty]

Frosty you really read to much into this shit. Give it a break man, and lay off of the studies for a while.

I'm just being practical....fish oil has the EPA and DHA right in it while plant fats do not. You get more EFAs with less polyunsaturated fats.

[sifu]

OK so what is your damn point? I MEAN REALLY WHAT IS THE POINT?! I swear you argue just for the sake of argument, you know. Who gives a shit. John said that the flax oil works great for him, groovy and Will Brink says that it is great as well. And you know what Will Brink knows about nutrition than you ever will. Can you ever accept that you are wrong? That your training isn't the best? That maybe YOU JUST DON'T KNOW IT ALL.

Glutamine works great for me, others say it is a worthless supplement, we could argue studies back and forth on it for over a year. And what would come of it? NOT A GOD DAMN THING! You know why? Because it works for me, not because a study or some college proffesor told me that it will, but because when I go off of it, I can tell a big recovery difference. Now I know you like to proove yourself here, but fuck man give it a break, no one is impressed.

[Frosty]

OK so what is your damn point? I MEAN REALLY WHAT IS THE POINT?!

That plant fats don't have EPA and DHA, and it isn't a reliable source of omega-3s.

I swear you argue just for the sake of argument, you know. Who gives a shit. John said that the flax oil works great for him, groovy and Will Brink says that it is great as well.

John said I am incorrect that plant fats are not a reliable source of EPA and DHA.

And you know what Will Brink knows about nutrition than you ever will. Can you ever accept that you are wrong? That your training isn't the best? That maybe YOU JUST DON'T KNOW IT ALL.

So by me saying plant fats aren't a good source of EFAs that means I think I am never wrong and that my training isn't the best? Didn't know stating one thing meant I knew it all....I must have missed something there.

Glutamine works great for me, others say it is a worthless supplement, we could argue studies back and forth on it for over a year. And what would come of it? NOT A GOD DAMN THING! You know why? Because it works for me, not because a study or some college proffesor told me that it will, but because when I go off of it, I can tell a big recovery difference. Now I know you like to proove yourself here, but fuck man give it a break, no one is impressed.

Saying glutamine works is quite different than saying that plant fats aren't a reliable source of EFAs. EFAs are established as essential, and fish oil is a better source of it since it already contains EPA and DHA. There's not much to debate on that. Not copying and pasting studies here.

Relax, bro.

[sifu]

I am relaxed but frankly sick of your bullshit posts. How do you know that plant fats aren't a good source? Becuase a book told you? Becuase some college proffesor with 40% bodyfat told you?

If people are using it and reaping great benefits from it, then obvioulsy the source of the EFAS is working.

If you can't understand where I was going with the glutamine part, then you will never truelly undertand a damn thing. And if you refuse to ever believe that you are wrong. By all means don't get married, otherwise you will be back on here in a few years, having a argument with us about how your wife is in the wrong, even though we all know that you are.

Once again how do you know that plants aren't reliable for the compunds that you keep bringing up? How I really want to here where you got the information and if you say some book at Hastings or a college book, I am going to laugh my ass off. Not one professor I ever took a class from new anything other than what they read, and they couldn't believe how some of us made changes just by busting our asses and doing what worked, not theorizing every GOD DAMN thing on the freaken planet when it comes to nutrition.

Now grow up, grow a set of balls, be a man, and just accept that you sure as hell do not know it all. None of us do.

[Frosty]

I am relaxed but frankly sick of your bullshit posts. How do you know that plant fats aren't a good source? Becuase a book told you? Becuase some college proffesor with 40% bodyfat told you?

If people are using it and reaping great benefits from it, then obvioulsy the source of the EFAS is working.

If you can't understand where I was going with the glutamine part, then you will never truelly undertand a damn thing. And if you refuse to ever believe that you are wrong. By all means don't get married, otherwise you will be back on here in a few years, having a argument with us about how your wife is in the wrong, even though we all know that you are.

Once again how do you know that plants aren't reliable for the compunds that you keep bringing up? How I really want to here where you got the information and if you say some book at Hastings or a college book, I am going to laugh my ass off. Not one professor I ever took a class from new anything other than what they read, and they couldn't believe how some of us made changes just by busting our asses and doing what worked, not theorizing every GOD DAMN thing on the freaken planet when it comes to nutrition.

Now grow up, grow a set of balls, be a man, and just accept that you sure as hell do not know it all. None of us do.


sifu, if you want proof, do this. Go to this website:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

This is the USDA nutritional database. Search for "flaxseed oil". Select whatever quantity you wish and view the profile.

Scroll down to "Lipids."

Look for 20:5 n-3. This is EPA. You will note a total lack of EPA.

Then look for 22:6 n-3. This is DHA. You will note a total lack of DHA.

I clearly said that it is not clear who will and will not be able to make the conversions properly. People are too individual. Just because it works for one person doesn't mean it will work for another. HOWEVER, fish oil already has the EPA and DHA in it which requires NO conversion for the body to use it. This means it works for the people that can make the conversion of plant fats and also the ones that CAN NOT. This is the best way to go, especially when it means a lower intake of PUFAs which should be kept to a minimum. Not to mention cod liver oil has vitamins A and D, which also no plant fats contain.

[sifu]

Now you are siting government websites? Give me a break, amy as well have been the FDA and how ephedra kills blahj blah blah. I am going to bed now, have fun.

[sifu]

You should check out anabolicminds web page, you and Bobo would make great buddies.

[Frosty]

Now you are siting government websites? Give me a break, amy as well have been the FDA and how ephedra kills blahj blah blah. I am going to bed now, have fun.

Yeah man, now that I think about it there is that big government conspiracy to make flaxseed oil look bad to sell more fish oil...no wait...lol

http://www.mercola.com/beef/omega3_oil.htm


Thought this was interesting:

"One study found that in the conversion of ALA to DHA, only .05 percent of ALA was available for synthesis of DHA."

If this is true, that would mean I would need 6,000 GRAMS of flax oil to equal 1 tbs of fish oil in terms of DHA. Essentially meaning ALA found in flax is useless for DHA, which would make fish oil far superior and of course mean that flax oil is indeed not a reliable source of DHA.

http://www.mercola.com/2003/jan/8/flaxseed_oil.htm

Here is some more:

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/tripping.html

[buffness]

I'm not going to get in it with you on this thread to frosty, but I do agree with sifu 100% Your reading way to much into things. Your always going to find to sides to a story. Let people stick to the one that works for them...

[RIDE/DIE]

Let's see...
I recommend:

Fish Oil: 2-4 grams ED (that's ? caps); research proven.
Hey, guess what,,, you could then eat the real thing, "fish", get the 2 grams of fat ,and the protein, at the same time...... Not to expensive then...

(not 18 to 20g) it is a waste of money; an over-kill. Use Olive oil or coconut oil to make up your fat intake goals.

Flaxseed Oil:
waste of money. too expensive, too sensetive and the conversion is about 5 to 10% ALA to DHA. what about EPA......none...

I recommend Flaxseeds themselves.
use a coffee grinder and grind up 1/4 to 1/2 cup ED, add it to your shakes/salads where ever you want.

yes it is good for you: EFA's blah,blah,blah... but the fiber content is excellent. Especially when you are on a low carb diet, and hardly ever get fiber in their.
flaxseeds, for fiber more than EFA's..
EPA and DHA from Fish oil.

[pr0ndog]

Fish Oil: 2 grams ED (that's 2 caps); research proven.


Well do the the research prove that 2grams works (as in you need 2g, not less), or that more than 2g is a waste as no additional fish oil will have even more/better effect?

[RIDE/DIE]

I will dig up the research....

[Frosty]

I'm not going to get in it with you on this thread to frosty, but I do agree with sifu 100% Your reading way to much into things. Your always going to find to sides to a story. Let people stick to the one that works for them...

Why is this so difficult to understand? I said SOME people it can work fine with. Perhaps John can make the conversion fine. But not everyone is the same! Not everyone may be able to make the conversion. THEREFORE fish oil is superior and a reliable source of EFAs. I'm not trying to tell John not to take his flax oil...this thread was about recommended oils. I recommend fish oil because it is a reliable source of EFAs to EVERYONE.

[RIDE/DIE]

Well do the the research prove that 2grams works (as in you need 2g, not less), or that more than 2g is a waste as no additional fish oil will have even more/better effect?

correction:
Fish Oil: 2-4 grams ED (that's ? caps); research proven.
? means some caps are different then others in amount of EPA, DHA

[pr0ndog]

correction:
Fish Oil: 2-4 grams ED (that's ? caps); research proven.
? means some caps are different then others in amount of EPA, DHA


Thank you sir!

That means that if you take like 1g caps with 0.3g EPA and 0.3 DHA you have to take 10x1g caps to get the needed (about) amount of ED.

[Whacked]

Hate to get involved here but all I've ever read from Frosty are VALID attempts to bring forth valuable researched information. What's so wrong with that? Let the dude bring the shit, read it.....decipher for yourself if it works or not for you.....nuff said. Knowledge is power!! A brother who simply wants to bring out some potentially valuable information to the public eye....whether or not it challenges YOUR views.....should NOT be treated as such!!

This whole damn board is based upon some dude (IA) who went against the grain right up against the public's "gospel" for lifting.......and spoke the truth. Why is he NOT an outcast? (Thanks again IA for going against the grain and sharing your views!!!)

Challenge your mind....LISTEN to what others have to say.....educate yourslef.....discern reality from bullshit. Nuff said!!

Frosty: Love your posts bro.....preach on man! If you people dont want to listen, read on.

[John Benz]

This whole damn board is based upon some dude (IA) who went against the grain right up against the public's "gospel" for lifting.......and spoke the truth. Why is he NOT an outcast? (Thanks again IA for going against the grain and sharing your views!!!)
The difference is like night and day. Iron Addict found as a result of years of experience that the bullshit articles and many long held traditions were as far from the truth as the articles frosty searches for and finds. You can find some asshole somewhere that will contradict even the most sound ideas and exhibit some half-assed study as his proof. Frosty has learned absolutely NOTHING from years of personal experience and spends multitudinous hours searching for some idiotic bit of psuedo-science to expound his wisdom and show us the error of our ways. Far from realizing his grand illusion of being hailed as a supplement guru, most of the knowledgeable guys on here have written him down as an argumentative windbag who is seldom right....but he always seems to find a few as clueless as himself to cheer him on. Ahhh...newbies. Ain't life grand! :D

[Frosty]

The difference is like night and day. Iron Addict found as a result of years of experience that the bullshit articles and many long held traditions were as far from the truth as the articles frosty searches for and finds. You can find some asshole somewhere that will contradict even the most sound ideas and exhibit some half-assed study as his proof. Frosty has learned absolutely NOTHING from years of personal experience and spends multitudinous hours searching for some idiotic bit of psuedo-science to expound his wisdom and show us the error of our ways. Far from realizing his grand illusion of being hailed as a supplement guru, most of the knowledgeable guys on here have written him down as an argumentative windbag who is seldom right....but he always seems to find a few as clueless as himself to cheer him on. Ahhh...newbies. Ain't life grand! :D


You sure are a loud mouth for constantly making BASELESS claims. I have yet to see you actually answer any of the questions I asked you in this thread. Do you ever plan on answering any of them? Probably not...just like in the last thread about saturated fat where all you did was insult and provide NO information. You sure as hell are creating a pattern here.

You conveniently skip over addressing any posts related to the subject at hand, but you sure jump in to only throw some insults. What are you, 13 years old?

You claim things that you can't back up for shit, then you start insulting ME. You are pathetic. That is all I have to say. Get a clue and maybe next time bring a little info to a debate instead of your baseless opinions.

Sorry to everyone else for the tone of my post.

[buffness]

You sure are a loud mouth for constantly making BASELESS claims. I have yet to see you actually answer any of the questions I asked you in this thread. Do you ever plan on answering any of them? Probably not...just like in the last thread about saturated fat where all you did was insult and provide NO information. You sure as hell are creating a pattern here.

You conveniently skip over addressing any posts related to the subject at hand, but you sure jump in to only throw some insults. What are you, 13 years old?

You claim things that you can't back up for shit, then you start insulting ME. You are pathetic. That is all I have to say. Get a clue and maybe next time bring a little info to a debate instead of your baseless opinions.

Sorry to everyone else for the tone of my post.
Debate all you want frosty, but I'll bet everything I have that JB Lives the part of an actual BB/PL, who looks the part as well. I wonder if you actually do. I don't blame JB if he ban's you for insulting him. I sure as hell would have done it long time ago...

[rcs6856]

I take Cod liver oil every day, and it never did a thing to relieve joint pain. I was skeptical until I used the Flax oil at the high dosage. Actually Will Brink was the first recommend it for joint pain.

Just out of curiosity, did you ever try cod liver oil (or any other oil high in Omega 3 EFAs) in high doses like you're taking the flax? I'm curious as to whether its something unique to flax that has helped your joints.

[John Benz]

Just out of curiosity, did you ever try cod liver oil (or any other oil high in Omega 3 EFAs) in high doses like you're taking the flax? I'm curious as to whether its something unique to flax that has helped your joints.
NEVER take that much Cod Liver Oil! I take a couple tspns each day as it is the finest source of easily assimilated Vit A and Vit D. Megadosing these vitamins can prove mildy toxic, and although the fish oil forms are less so, I still only want exactly the amount I get from 2 tsps...no more!

I have taken about a tbsn a day of Cod Liver Oil for many years, and fish oil capsules for the efa benefit as well. Never did a thing for joint inflammation....only flax oil did that. Why fix something if it aint broke? Should I look for some other efa source because some study done at a community college in Nowhereville tells me my real world results must be flawed because they don't agree with conclusions found in the studies.

I posted the this before, but I think the people on this thread need a refresher! :D

WARNING!!!! THE FOLLOWING POST IS FICTIONAL. ANY SIMILARITIES TO REAL PEOPLE OR EVENTS IS PURELY COINCIDENTAL.

You have this one favorite exercise that you do. You grip the bar your way and you lift it your way. You get this really great squeeze at the top and since you’ve discovered it, (the particular muscle) has grown 1/4 of an inch in 3 weeks. This has since fired up your whole program and you know you’re on your way to the best gains of your lifting career.

The gym you’re training at has 2 guys who are getting regional exposure, Pork and Chop. Everyone is in awe of them and they have "God like" status. Only a chosen few have the privilege to talk to them.

You’re at the gym and you finish the 2nd set of your favorite exercise and as soon as you drop the bar to the floor, you feel a tap on the shoulder. You turn around and it’s Pork with Chop standing behind him with a pissed look on his face.

Pork says, “Look boy alright, next week we have (enter muscle magazine name here) coming by to shoot us for their next issue, alright, and we don’t want people to think we train in a gym with people who don’t know what they’re doing, alright. That exercise you’re doing and the way you’re doing it makes me and Chop look bad, alright.”

“Yea, look bad. It makes us look bad, alright”, says Chop.

“And if you want proof, alright, “ says Pork as he reaches into his 2 sizes too small spandex shorts and pulls out a soggy piece of paper, “this is a study from the Journal of the Association of Guys with Too Much Time on their Hands, alright. They had 6 well-trained individuals do your exercise your way for 6 weeks, alright. They concluded that this exercise done your way is completely worthless and anyone who thinks otherwise is a big pooh-pooh brain, alright.”

What do you do?

A. Ignore him and continue on with your 3rd set. Who cares what some study says? You’ve seen it with your own eyes, that’s all the proof you need.

B. Bow down before them and accept the fact that if the study says its worthless, that it must be. Besides what’s personal experience compared to science. The 1/4 inch gain must have all been in your head.

C. Take the damp paper from Pork’s hand, place it on the floor, pull out your member, urinate on it, pick it back up and rub it all up in Pork’s face as you scream, “CONCLUDE THIS, ALRIGHT”.

[John Benz]

Debate all you want frosty, but I'll bet everything I have that JB Lives the part of an actual BB/PL, who looks the part as well. I wonder if you actually do. I don't blame JB if he ban's you for insulting him. I sure as hell would have done it long time ago...
I appreciate the kind words brother buffness! But I have no intention of banning frosty. He is a very sharp guy and has a lot of potential, just needs to listen and learn more from the older more experienced trainers here and quit trying to debate every basic nutrition principle to death. I refuse to answer questions set to bait me into prolonging a debate that is finished. Fish oil is good, but is NOT a viable substitute for FLAX. Flax seeds are not a viable sub either, as there is not enough of the pure oil in a few spoonsful of seeds. ;)

[Frosty]

NEVER take that much Cod Liver Oil! I take a couple tspns each day as it is the finest source of easily assimilated Vit A and Vit D. Megadosing these vitamins can prove mildy toxic, and although the fish oil forms are less so, I still only want exactly the amount I get from 2 tsps...no more!

I have taken about a tbsn a day of Cod Liver Oil for many years, and fish oil capsules for the efa benefit as well. Never did a thing for joint inflammation....only flax oil did that.


So you took about 1 tbs or so of fish oil (cod liver or otherwise) per day? Or was it more with the fish oil added to the CLO?

If it would take half as much fish oil to equal the same amount of EPA (assuming conditions are ok), it would take then 3 or so tbs of fish oil per day to be equal to 6 tbs of flax oil per day. Have you ever tried this?

[RIDE/DIE]

The "active" components of fish oils are eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), a polyunsaturated fatty acid with 20 carbon atoms in its backbone, and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA), a polyunsaturated fatty acid with 22 carbon atoms. Both are members of the omega-3 group of essential fatty acids.

EPA and DHA are found exclusively in marine animals; fatty fish such as herring, sardines, salmon and fresh tuna are the best sources.

Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) is another omega-3 fatty acid found in flaxseed and flaxseed oil. ALA has 18 carbon atoms in its backbone and can be converted to EPA in the body (in the liver) by the addition of two carbon atoms. EPA, in turn, can be converted to DHA.

Researchers at the National Institutes of Health have just completed a study designed to determine just how much ALA is actually converted to EPA in the body.

The results show that only about 0.2 per cent of the ALA (2 mg) was actually converted to EPA. In contrast, about 23 per cent of the EPA was available for conversion to DHA. The researchers also noted that the half-life (the time it takes to reduce initial concentration by 50 per cent) of ALA in blood plasma was quite low at about one hour. In comparison, the half-life of EPA was 67 hours and that of DHA 20 hours.

The researchers conclude that ALA is not a viable source of EPA and DHA and cannot replace fish and fish oils in the diet.

According to this new data a tablespoon of flax oil would only result in the synthesis of about 30 mg of EPA – far less than the recommended daily intake of 220 mg.

Pawlosky, Robert J. Physiological compartmental analysis of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in adult humans. Journal of Lipid Research, Vol. 42, August 2001, pp. 1257-65

[Frosty]

I just wanted to say that EPA and DHA are definitely not exclusive to marine life. If it were, man would never have survived. It can be found in eggs, meats, and organ meats (brain is a good source of DHA). It can also be found in good milk (mother's milk is very rich in DHA).

[RIDE/DIE]

Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) which are found in fish oils are helpful in the prevention and treatment of cardiovascular disease, arrhythmias, diabetes, breast cancer, and arthritis. While EPA is readily synthesized in the body from alpha-linolenic acid (found in flaxseed oil) Dr. Pepping states that the synthesis of DHA is much more difficult and that DHA must be obtained directly from fish, certain algae or green, leafy vegetables.

He also points out that the body's optimal balance between omega-6 (linoleic) and omega-3 (linolenic) fatty acids is a 2:1 to 4:1 ratio.

Unfortunately, the typical Western diet contains these acids in ratios of 20:1 to 25:1. An excess of omega-6 fatty acids can lead to formation of blood clots, allergic and inflammatory disorders, and the accelerated growth of certain cancer cells.

Dr. Pepping recommends two servings of cold-water fish (e.g. salmon, mackerel or herring) per week, 2-4 grams of fish oil capsules per day or 15-30 ml of flaxseed oil per day as a preventive measure.

He points out that it is important to add 200 IU of vitamin E to the daily diet if supplementing with fish oils.

Pepping, Joseph. Omega-3 essential fatty acids. American Journal of Health-System Pharmacy, Vol. 56, April 15, 1999, pp. 719-24

EAT THE FISH ( I do every friday, that's once a week; that all that's needed.)
Let's not complicate our lifes by taking this and taking that.

(this is coming from someone who list over ten different things to taken pre W/O)
hahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RIDE/DIE]

Another thing is EPA and DHA are definitely not exclusive to marine life. If it were, man would never have survived. It can be found in eggs, meats, and organ meats. It can also be found in good milk (mother's milk is very rich in DHA).

While EPA is readily synthesized in the body from alpha-linolenic acid (found in flaxseed oil) Dr. Pepping states that the synthesis of DHA is much more difficult and that DHA must be obtained directly from fish, certain algae or green, leafy vegetables.

[Frosty]

He points out that it is important to add 200 IU of vitamin E to the daily diet if supplementing with fish oils.



I have trouble understanding why this would be important. 200IUs of vitamin E is virtually impossible to get in the diet, even supplementing with wheat germ oil. I've heard that taking excessive fish oil can deplete vitamin E, but I still don't even know if I believe this. Perhaps they aren't using high quality oils and the antioxidant is needed to deal with the oxidation? I have no clue, but I just don't see how it make sense. Why would taking, what amounts to a concentrated food, require impossible amounts of vitamin E from the diet?


Also, I did make a post before about why taking cod liver oil is superior to eating the fish, in MY opinion.

That's true, but there are several reasons to take the oil over eating the fish:

1. Fish meat contains little vitamins A or D, while cod liver oil is a very rich source of it.

2. You cook fish and EFAs are sensitive to heat which can quickly oxidize them. This is not good for the EFAs. Fish oils do not have this problem.

3. Many fish contain mercury and other toxins in unacceptable levels.

4. Too expensive. Farmed salmon is worthless, and getting wild salmon every day would be horrendously expensive. Since I take in 14-20g of cod liver oil a day, I would need to eat 12 ounces of salmon PER DAY. That costs as much, if not more, than an entire 12 oz bottle of cod liver oil from Twinlab. So for the price of what could last me up to three weeks I would have to spend every day.

5. A lot of the fat is in the skin, and most people don't eat that.

[RIDE/DIE]

I almost don't want to get into this, because I saw a study that said flax oil is pretty much useless for DHA...a one of those 'this study says that, but this says that' kinda thing. The only thing I'm wondering is how could more DHA than EPA be produced from ALA since in order for ALA to be converted into DHA it has to be converted to EPA first?.


changed your mind. huh?!?!

J.J. with you.
We all fuck up every once in a while....

[Frosty]

changed your mind. huh?!?!

J.J. with you.
We all fuck up every once in a while....

Sorry, I edited that because I misread what you wrote. I thought you said that ALA was better made into DHA than EPA....once I reread your post I realized I misread that. My bad.

[RIDE/DIE]

I have trouble understanding why this would be important. 200IUs of vitamin E is virtually impossible to get in the diet, even supplementing with wheat germ oil. I've heard that taking excessive fish oil can deplete vitamin E, but I still don't even know if I believe this. Perhaps they aren't using high quality oils and the antioxidant is needed to deal with the oxidation? I have no clue, but I just don't see how it make sense. Why would taking, what amounts to a concentrated food, require impossible amounts of vitamin E from the diet?

Cell membranes rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids such as EPA and DHA are more susceptible to peroxidation by free radical reactions. This may severely affect their structure and function unless precautions are taken to ensure that the free radicals are neutralized by lipid-soluble antioxidants. Research has shown that people taking fish oil supplements also need to increase their intake of vitamin E.

Uauy-Dagach, Ricardo and Valenzuela, Alfonso. Marine oils: the health benefits of n-3 fatty acids. Nutrition Reviews, Vol. 54, November 1996, pp. S102-S108

[RIDE/DIE]

Sorry, I edited that because I misread what you wrote. I thought you said that ALA was better made into DHA than EPA....once I reread your post I realized I misread that. My bad.

hey, Frosty, don't get me wrong, I did not write any of this jargon.....
these are all cut and paste..

I could never spell any of those big words right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EPA, DHA blah,blah.....

food for thought:

It is estimated that the optimal daily intake of EPA and DHA (total) is about 300 to 400 mg/day. Dr. Simopoulos points out that the Canadian Ministry of Health's guidelines for fatty acid intake recommends a daily intake of 1000 to 1800 mg of omega-3 PUFAs. She cautions that fish oil supplements should always be stabilized with adequate amounts of vitamin E in order to prevent oxidation leading to rancidity. [211 references]

Simopoulos, Artemis. Omega-3 fatty acids in health and disease and in growth and development. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 54, 1991, pp. 438-63

[Frosty]

Cell membranes rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids such as EPA and DHA are more susceptible to peroxidation by free radical reactions. This may severely affect their structure and function unless precautions are taken to ensure that the free radicals are neutralized by lipid-soluble antioxidants. Research has shown that people taking fish oil supplements also need to increase their intake of vitamin E.

Uauy-Dagach, Ricardo and Valenzuela, Alfonso. Marine oils: the health benefits of n-3 fatty acids. Nutrition Reviews, Vol. 54, November 1996, pp. S102-S108


I would absolutely understand that, but 200 IUs?? That's just impossible through diet. I could see theraputic doses to help resolve a problem, but to require 200 IUs per day of vitamin E at all times then puts supplements into the category of staples, which I do not like.

Couldn't a person just up their intake of other natural antioxidants? Acerola berries for vitamin C, wheat germ oil for vitamin E, brazil nuts for selenium, vegetable juicing, cranberries, blueberries, etc? *EDIT* Also, wouldn't cod liver oil have an advantage in that vitamin A acts as an antioxidant?

I am also a firm believer in minimizing polyunsaturated oils in the diet for the reason you gave. They are just more prone to oxidation and stress the body's antioxidant powers more than needed, especially when they have more important things to take care of than trying to fix a poor diet. Coconut oil is supposed to decrease the need for vitamin E in the body, for example.

[RIDE/DIE]

I would absolutely understand that, but 200 IUs?? That's just impossible through diet. I could see theraputic doses to help resolve a problem, but to require 200 IUs per day of vitamin E at all times then puts supplements into the category of staples, which I do not like.

Couldn't a person just up their intake of other natural antioxidants? Acerola berries for vitamin C, wheat germ oil for vitamin E, brazil nuts for selenium, vegetable juicing, cranberries, blueberries, etc?

I am also a firm believer in minimizing polyunsaturated oils in the diet for the reason you gave. They are just more prone to oxidation and stress the body's antioxidant powers more than needed, especially when they have more important things to take care of than trying to fix a poor diet. Coconut oil is supposed to decrease the need for vitamin E in the body, for example.

hi-jacked from: www.animalkits.be

Of course we have the 'natural is best' group claiming that you shouldn't use synthetic vitE cause it's 'not as good'.

Well, one of the problems is solubility which can be taken care of with water solulbe E.

And now there is a conversion of what amount of synthetic E matches natural vitamin E.

15mg of natural vitamin E is 22IU natural vitamin E which is equal to 30iu of synthetic vitamin E.

problem solved.

I am also a firm believer in minimizing polyunsaturated oils in the diet for the reason you gave. They are just more prone to oxidation and stress the body's antioxidant powers more than needed, especially when they have more important things to take care of than trying to fix a poor diet. Coconut oil is supposed to decrease the need for vitamin E in the body, for example.

I also agree with you.. Mininizing poly oils. but there is also a train of thought outthere which beleives different...
I was born in Cuba, cocconut is commonly used for cooking there as well as eating it in its natural state (straight off the fucking Palm)

ALA helps Vit E

[rcs6856]

NEVER take that much Cod Liver Oil! I take a couple tspns each day as it is the finest source of easily assimilated Vit A and Vit D. Megadosing these vitamins can prove mildy toxic, and although the fish oil forms are less so, I still only want exactly the amount I get from 2 tsps...no more!

I have taken about a tbsn a day of Cod Liver Oil for many years, and fish oil capsules for the efa benefit as well. Never did a thing for joint inflammation....only flax oil did that. Why fix something if it aint broke? Should I look for some other efa source because some study done at a community college in Nowhereville tells me my real world results must be flawed because they don't agree with conclusions found in the studies.

I posted the this before, but I think the people on this thread need a refresher! :D

WARNING!!!! THE FOLLOWING POST IS FICTIONAL. ANY SIMILARITIES TO REAL PEOPLE OR EVENTS IS PURELY COINCIDENTAL.

You have this one favorite exercise that you do. You grip the bar your way and you lift it your way. You get this really great squeeze at the top and since you’ve discovered it, (the particular muscle) has grown 1/4 of an inch in 3 weeks. This has since fired up your whole program and you know you’re on your way to the best gains of your lifting career.

The gym you’re training at has 2 guys who are getting regional exposure, Pork and Chop. Everyone is in awe of them and they have "God like" status. Only a chosen few have the privilege to talk to them.

You’re at the gym and you finish the 2nd set of your favorite exercise and as soon as you drop the bar to the floor, you feel a tap on the shoulder. You turn around and it’s Pork with Chop standing behind him with a pissed look on his face.

Pork says, “Look boy alright, next week we have (enter muscle magazine name here) coming by to shoot us for their next issue, alright, and we don’t want people to think we train in a gym with people who don’t know what they’re doing, alright. That exercise you’re doing and the way you’re doing it makes me and Chop look bad, alright.”

“Yea, look bad. It makes us look bad, alright”, says Chop.

“And if you want proof, alright, “ says Pork as he reaches into his 2 sizes too small spandex shorts and pulls out a soggy piece of paper, “this is a study from the Journal of the Association of Guys with Too Much Time on their Hands, alright. They had 6 well-trained individuals do your exercise your way for 6 weeks, alright. They concluded that this exercise done your way is completely worthless and anyone who thinks otherwise is a big pooh-pooh brain, alright.”

What do you do?

A. Ignore him and continue on with your 3rd set. Who cares what some study says? You’ve seen it with your own eyes, that’s all the proof you need.

B. Bow down before them and accept the fact that if the study says its worthless, that it must be. Besides what’s personal experience compared to science. The 1/4 inch gain must have all been in your head.

C. Take the damp paper from Pork’s hand, place it on the floor, pull out your member, urinate on it, pick it back up and rub it all up in Pork’s face as you scream, “CONCLUDE THIS, ALRIGHT”.

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't referring to any study or anything, again, I was just curious as to whether it was something specific to flax oil that helped with your inflammation, which it appears is the case.

[Frosty]

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't referring to any study or anything, again, I was just curious as to whether it was something specific to flax oil that helped with your inflammation, which it appears is the case.

I'd be cautious about making an conclusions about the flax at the moment. With the obvious issues of a single case study notwithstanding, the problem appears that he is comparing SIX tablespoons of flax oil to somewhere around ONE tablespoon of fish and cod liver oil. If this is the case, you cannot make the conclusion that flax is superior for joint health. The most obvious experiment would be for him to try 6 tablespoons of each for a specific period of time and note the results of each.

[rcs6856]

Little did Pitbull know when he asked a simple question about oil that he'd have a 70+ battle.

[RIDE/DIE]

Yeah, but its a nice thread with plenty of info. for those wanting to know....
just a little bit more....

The Final conclusion:

:D EAT THE FISH and lift heavy weights!!!!!! :D

[SemperFi 0321]

The Final conclusion:

:D EAT THE FISH and lift heavy weights!!!!!! :D



As the great Pullinbig / EXMGQ says: "Dummy-up and lift the fucking weights...."


This is a great thread........i just wonder if it will ever end? It has me considering adding flax into my diet on top of the fish oil i take. we'll see.

semper fi

[John Benz]

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't referring to any study or anything, again, I was just curious as to whether it was something specific to flax oil that helped with your inflammation, which it appears is the case.
Yes, flax oil is the single most important element in relieving sore joints. Even if cod liver oil could do the same thing, and I've seen ZERO data to support this, just speculation from frosty, taking that much vit A and D would not be a good idea. Wait a minute....I think I already explained all this! ;)

Remember that information derived from studies is all simply speculation, until it is appplied and proven. Studies give speculative answers; real world experience provides the only practical data. Tom Prince says, "Don't show me the recipe....show me the cake!"

Pay no attention to the newbie named frosty! :D

[Frosty]

Yes, flax oil is the single most important element in relieving sore joints. Even if cod liver oil could do the same thing, and I've seen ZERO data to support this, just speculation from frosty, taking that much vit A and D would not be a good idea. Wait a minute....I think I already explained all this! ;)

Remember that information derived from studies is all simply speculation, until it is appplied and proven. Studies give speculative answers; real world experience provides the only practical data. Tom Prince says, "Don't show me the recipe....show me the cake!"

Pay no attention to the newbie named frosty! :D

Uhh, if you don't wanna OD on CLO then take fish oil....

So you're trying to compare 1 tbs of fish oil to 6 tbs of flax oil with respect to joint pain, and then your conclusion is that fish oil is inferior?? Evil Kineval couldn't make that leap in logic.

You're the one making baseless claims that fish oil is inferior to flax. You base it on an absolutely absurb notion. You haven't given any practical data that can be used for anything. All we know is that you said 6 tbs of flax oil helps joint pain. Where you came up with fish oil being inferior I have no clue.

Why don't you try 6 tbs of fish oil and see what happens. Then you'll have some actual practical data that you could share with us. Until then quite making false conclusions, k?

[exmgq]

Uhh, if you don't wanna OD on CLO then take fish oil....

So you're trying to compare 1 tbs of fish oil to 6 tbs of flax oil with respect to joint pain, and then your conclusion is that fish oil is inferior?? Evil Kineval couldn't make that leap in logic.

You're the one making baseless claims that fish oil is inferior to flax. You base it on an absolutely absurb notion. You haven't given any practical data that can be used for anything. All we know is that you said 6 tbs of flax oil helps joint pain. Where you came up with fish oil being inferior I have no clue.

Why don't you try 6 tbs of fish oil and see what happens. Then you'll have some actual practical data that you could share with us. Until then quite making false conclusions, k?

frosty please shutup. go bang on your high chair somewhere else. everyone is getting tired of your childish rants. and i mean everyone.

[iron addict]

Frosty,

John Benz has been at this since before you were in grade school and you have read some studies that make you an expert. In a few years when you have some PRACTICLE experience come talk to us.

IA

[Frosty]

Frosty,

John Benz has been at this since before you were in grade school and you have read some studies that make you an expert. In a few years when you have some PRACTICLE experience come talk to us.

IA


Comparing 1 tbs of fish oil to 6 tbs of flax oil and then saying fish oil is inferior is far from practical experience, sorry. I can't even believe I have to keep saying this. I don't give a shit how long John has been doing this...his conclusions are absolutely unfounded. If you gonna compare two things use the same amounts! Shit, would it make any sense if I said "cyp sucks...prop rules cause I took 1g/wk of prop and then on another cycle did 200mg/wk of cyp and the prop worked a lot better, so cyp sucks."

[John Benz]

Frosty, don't twist my words around here. I simply stated that from my experience and others that have been at this game a while, that flax oil is proven to relieve joint pain. I didn't say fish oil was inferior...I simply have seen ZERO "hands-on" proof that it does the same thing.

Why would you expect anyone go out and buy fish oil to replace perfectly good flax oil just because some studies of dubious merit indicate that it may work in similar fashion? I have a suggestion for you...start working out with some real weight, and after a few years you may know what rotator cuff and elbow pain feel like. When you have tried the fish oil and found it to be beneficial, come back and share your experience. You quote a line from Will Brink's piece where he mentions that oils that contain EFA and reduce joint inflammation include fish oil....but the name of the article is still..."Flax Oil For Everything!"

There are too many crappy products out there that I have spent a fortune on due to hype. Methoxy, Tribulus, Cell-Tech and pro-hormones to name a few. Guess what...all these were proven effective in controlled studies. In the real world they proved useless. I can still remember the ads with charts and studies showing Methoxy to build lean mass while cutting fat...and of course 1-Test was 15 times more anabolic than testosterone...oh well. :o

Frosty, you're going to let your temper get away from you and get banned. That's not what I want. I can see you're intelligent and well read. I want you to stop being so hard-headed and just post your info, agree to disagree and stop dragging these things out. You could be a great asset to this site...just remember that no-one is right all the time.

And you were right and I was wrong about the brewers yeast. I did a search and although it is one of the richest sources of several B-Vitamins, it is deficient in B-12. Certain areas must have contributing factors in the soil, because yeast from Argentina for example contains some (but not enough) B-12. See...I admitted I was wrong and you were right. :D

[sifu]

Money says that frosty is 5'10 155 dripping wet, who is in with me:)

[RIDE/DIE]

Frosty, you're going to let your temper get away from you and get banned. That's not what I want. I can see you're intelligent and well read. I want you to stop being so hard-headed and just post your info, agree to disagree and stop dragging these things out. You could be a great asset to this site...just remember that no-one is right all the time. :D

I agree, Frosty is/could be a great asset to the site.
I Idea is be open and disscuss the possiblities available, not contradict each and every view. Like I stated before:

I also agree with you.. Mininizing poly oils. but there is also a train of thought outthere which beleives different...

I have my opionion and others have theirs..... I understand and accept that!
Lets move on to better and brighter things.
Attacking Frosty with remarks like "Money says that frosty is 5'10 155 dripping wet, who is in with me", does not make the situation any better. (I know Sifu was just J.J. , but Frosty might take it the wrong way)
Let it always be that we are working together for a solution and stop picking at the problem.

[maximus]

Man, hefty and emotional thread.

Now let me tell you what i do in my practice. 10 years and about 12000 cases. Does that make me an expert, I think so, but argue if you want.

First Fish oil is the gold standard in reduction of inflammation through the entire body. Why? EPA inhibits 5 desaturase from converting DHGLA to arachidonic acid and then blocks the COX 2 step to convert to prostaglandin E2, thromboxanes, and blocks 5LOX from making leukotrienes.

If anyone wants to argue with my about lipid biochemistry then we can do that.

Next insulin shunts EPA's inhibition of this enzyme so eating lots of starchy or sugary foods increases OMEGA 6 conversion to DHGLA- AA- PE2 - Leukotrienes.

The oils are both good. The reason flax works well is because of the lignans, and not so much its EFA profile. Lignans also block DHGLA. Fish oil works by brute force of EPA.

Both are good but for different reasons.

That being said I use Fish oil becuase many individuals need EPA and DHA for brains, joints skin et all and have an abundance of Omega 6 fats in their diets already.

It also takes 5 enzymes to convert ALA to EPA and another couple of enzymes to Convery EPA to DHA. So i bypass the entire system and give fish oil which supplies the EFA already.

Too many Omega 6 fats , which are found in flax, overpower the Omega 3 side and the ratio gets out of tilt.

So for joints its a pickem-- both work, for brains its a fish oil blowout.

That being said, i think Flax is still a healthy oil, and is a great replacement for individuals who cant or wont do fish oil.

both inhibit inflammation, but the research shows that EPA in fish oil is the gold standard, and there are about 1000 or so studies showing its effectiveness.

I also use fish oil, not necessarily cod liver oil , for neurological disorders due to the high DHA level. I have had remarkable success with Manic Depression, Bipolar Disorder, Depression, Learning difficulties, ADHD, Alzeimers, Dementia and Cognitive disorders including aphasia.

So. you guys put down the guns. If someone is doing high dose flax and having success then good. Flax works well for menapausal women, the lignans help.

I still use fish oil in tandem with Flax for the nervous system.

[RIDE/DIE]

Maximus,
Thanks, I have been reading your posts for many years (on Animal's site).
I have high respect for your opinion.

You see, like Maximus stated, it goes deeper than just fish and flax.

important points:

EPA inhibits 5 desaturase from converting DHGLA to arachidonic acid and then blocks the COX 2 step to convert to prostaglandin E2, thromboxanes, and blocks 5LOX from making leukotrienes.

Some many people that claim to be experts could not begin to explain that statement out in layman's terms....

flax works well is because of the lignans, and not so much its EFA profile

That is why I recommend flaxseeds grinded in a coffee maker (1/4 to 1/2 cup ED)
Because of the Lignans (You don't get lignans in your Flax Oil)

It also takes 5 enzymes to convert ALA to EPA and another couple of enzymes to Convery EPA to DHA. So i bypass the entire system and give fish oil which supplies the EFA already.

That is why I recommend Fish oil (2g-4g ED)

Use both, its a win-win situation....

[pitbull800]

I use the following plus light olive oil in my shakes

http://www.beverlyinternational.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=84&Category_Code=